Baldur's Gate III

Chronicler

Habitué
Messages
299
For what it's worth, I don't think they "need" to do that.

It's just easier and cheaper than the alternative. You could pay a team of people specialized in finding bugs and stuff or you could just send it out to your legions of fans who will find all the problems just by law of large numbers and will pay for the privilege to do so.

From an artistic perspective it's a little debasing to put out your art in such an unpolished state but from a business perspective it's simple math.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

Innkeeper
Staff member
Messages
711
I agree about the bugs thing, a whole legion of players can just statistically find a lot more of them than a limited number of paid testers.

But Early Access is more than just free bug hunters. (This is just my personal impression, if anyone has more or different insights on this, I'm happy to be corrected).
Players aren't only encouraged to report bugs, but also to give feedback on features or gameplay mechanics and even story content, because every company wants to make a game that many players like, and sometimes it's just impossible for a small number of people to guess correctly what the big mass of players would like, consider convenient handling, or be annoyed with.
So it helps both the developers and us, because while the preferences of the majority of Early Access players might not align with our own, it's still statistically more likely than if a handful of devs alone inside their bubbles had made all the decisions.

For example, without player feedback from Mass Effect, Garrus Vakarian wouldn't have become a romance option in Mass Effect 2, because they just couldn't have imagined we wanted to date the Turian (and damn how wrong they were!)

So if we can give feedback before a game is finished, we all benefit from it.
And of course they start earning some money already when they're still in the phase where they need to invest, and with the long time (and amount of money) it takes nowadays to create a big RPG, it gives them a bit more room to breathe.

I mean, nobody forces a player to purchase a game in the Early Access phase.
And if you think of it, so many people, me included, have backed games or other products on Kickstarter without any guarantee that it will ever happen and take the shape that you thought, so if you compare it to that, Early Access is less risk for us players.

And of course in case of BG3 it was an extremely long phase, for various reasons, but I meant the concept in general.
 

Antimatter

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
796
And speaking of wishful thinking, I still want them to include a romance for Jaheira.

Will the player be able to see Jaheira like this? Asking for a friend?

A topic related to this has come up recently in the industry. In a recent Capcom Showcase, we got a look at the newest Resident Evil CG film, Resident Evil: Death Island, which showed a female character, Jill Valentine, who hadn't aged properly. "The real reason Capcom decided to be a coward and not age Jill alongside her male costars is that in pop culture there’s nothing scarier than women aging like normal human beings".


A lot of different people have shared their opinion on the subject.



I definitely agree, I would appreciate it if games and other media could show more aging women as badass. Moreover, we should be getting romance options among such women. It should become a norm.
 

Chronicler

Habitué
Messages
299
In anime it seems like there's a lot of "The teenage heroine's dad looks like another species. The teenage heroine's mom looks like a near identical seventeen year old doppelganger." Sometimes they make a gag of it and sometimes it just passes without comment.

I don't envy live action actresses. If you're a videogame or a cartoon character you can look like whatever and stay young forever, but when you're working with your real human body you don't just get to turn back the clock when the casting director's uncomfortable with the 40 year old step mom character looking her age.
 

mlnevese

Innkeeper
Staff member
Messages
400
It happens all the time with any long-lived franchise. James Bond has to be changed every few movies, for instance. But I'd like to see movies showing the heroes aging. Grandfather 007 could be interesting :)
 

O_Bruce

Habitué
Messages
172
To be honest, I consider the whole thing as a non-issue that sociopaths from Twitter came up with. What is shown in media doesn't change the fundamental reality of aging, so in that light voices for "normalization" or whatever do sound extremely silly. If we put first-world problems to the side, then I agree: the more options, the better. Providing that the execution is well of course.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

Innkeeper
Staff member
Messages
711
I think it's more than just changing out the actor for the main hero in a long-lived franchise.
It's more like age being the ultimate taboo, unless we're talking about the nasty old witch, the wise white-haired mentor or somebody's grandmother who is baking cake or knitting

We get finally more diversity in games with people of all different backgrounds, cultures, species, genders, orientations, whatever, and that's a good thing, so I really, really don't understand why having game characters that are not the mentor, knitting grandma or old witch to be older than 20-something is such a big deal.

Is it the fear of age itself? That people want to imagine, at least in games, that they're young forever? Is it because they're afraid to lose their target group if a main hero or a romance option in a game doesn't look like 18?
Or is it just the entitlement of "yikes, women in my game should be hot, and I decide what I find hot, they need to be flawlessly conserved 18yo strippers"
I don't think it's a non-issue that was bloated via Twitter. We had it mentioned in several thread here already that some of us would like to have, for example, more mature or older characters as romance options in games.

I happen to fall into the RL category "40 year old mom", and I refuse to accept that the target group of video games are first and foremost male teenagers or young male adults. Games have been out there a while and players have aged with them, and want to be respected too.

Yes, the fundamental reality of aging exists, but any kind of media still presents us with the illusion of perfection and influences people's mind that it's something to be ashamed of, something to hide, or even something disgusting, especially in women. Biased AI selection of images shows the same tendency. Some especially younger people who get most information from the internet don't even know anymore what real people look like, with or without their clothes on, that they're not plastic dolls, and that's sad. Or that life experience can be a valuable skill too.


I personally don't think I'm the "knitting and baking" age yet and quite at peace with the fact that my face and body no longer are exactly the same as when I was half my age, and I think it's ridiculous if people believe that somebody's aunt or mother or someone their age can't be cool and badass and yes, even sexy.

So pleeeeaaaase Larian, make Jaheira a romance option! :)
 

O_Bruce

Habitué
Messages
172
We get finally more diversity in games with people of all different backgrounds, cultures, species, genders, orientations, whatever, and that's a good thing, so I really, really don't understand why having game characters that are not the mentor, knitting grandma or old witch to be older than 20-something is such a big deal.
It isn't a big deal, because you can find characters like that. I also don't like the implication that being a mentor isn't somehow sufficient. As if being a mentor wasn't implying a huge deal of experience, wisdom, and expertise, all of which require the older character to fit in that role.
Yes, the fundamental reality of aging exists, but any kind of media still presents us with the illusion of perfection and influences people's mind that it's something to be ashamed of, something to hide, or even something disgusting, especially in women.
You are free to interpret this as you wish, but I think you're wrong. Adolescents and adults are in the vast majority cognitively developed enough to critically think and assess what they see. In light of that, I do think you're greatly exaggerating. As for audiences younger than that, imagine you're creating a game, comic book or any other type of entertainment for kids or teenagers. You probably would want to present them with something they are actually interested in or something that they could easily relate to. Doing that would be a sensible thing to do. It would be a good business instead some brainwashing influence you're implying.

Some especially younger people who get most information from the internet don't even know anymore what real people look like, with or without their clothes on, that they're not plastic dolls, and that's sad.
That sounds like a failure in raising that generation by their parents. So maybe parents should actually parent theit kids instead demanding everyone else to do it for them. I am sounding old, aren't I?
 

Antimatter

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
796
I would disagree with @O_Bruce here. It IS a big deal, and it's been an industry problem. E.g.


There are other similar researches online.

Being a mentor isn't sufficient in the context of using the mentor trope. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MentorArchetype

What I think @Urdnot_Wrex meant there, and I would mean it as well, is that so often senior characters are used only as tropes, nothing more. A bad (rather recent) example is from Horizon Zero Dawn ( https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost ). Whenever I see or hear an old mentor next to the main character, the first thought I have is: let's see how this person dies/leaves to make sure the main character learns the difficulties of the harsh world afterwards. It would be really good to see elderly characters used not only as mentors but more like real friends for a change, if romance is not an option. Rogue from Cyberpunk 2077 comes to my mind as a good start.

The second argument, about catering to the audience. Creative people should take a lead, take an initiative and do something brave. They should not only think about the audiences and make all the decisions from a business side. https://tavernrpg.com/threads/charlie-kaufmans-speech-at-the-wga-awards.258/ The very word "business" that was used here already kinda proves the point @Urdnot_Wrex made. There should be risks and creativity, not only safe options for the majority to relate to.

And the third argument, about parents. It's not that easy. People (kids) are not being influenced only by parents. It's a real problem in our world, a very big problem, that younger (and actually elder) people are being influenced by ads, marketing, etc to look and behave in a certain way. There is only so much a parent can do when all other people and media around the kid make them think about supposed look/body/face etc.





It's a real problem, a HUGE problem. So when a company as influential as Capcom decides that Jill Valentine shouldn't have aged properly, it adds a big deal to the problem. This needs to stop.

So that's why I don't think it all comes down to sociopaths from Twitter. It's a complex situation with different ins and outs, and it's exactly up to consumers, gamers in this case, to discuss and make sure their views are known, because the money machine, the "business", will continue doing their stuff, don't doubt that. The more there is a talk and a shared wish to see aged or ageing characters, the more the chances are to actually get them in games.
 

O_Bruce

Habitué
Messages
172
I think both of you have a heart in the right place. I think I can give you that.

Regarding mentors as characters, correct me if I'm wrong, @Antimatter but it seems to me what you describe is your subjective perception of such characters. You may see them that way, but that doesn't mean they are not intended to be fully realized characters in their own right. It also doesn't mean that everyone sees it your way or my way. Overall, I fail to be convinced that being a mentor figure is not a dignified position to be had.

Now, for the sake of the second argument let's assume the creative space works like it ideally should. Everything is represented everywhere in roughly equal fashion, every product of our culture is designed to cater to everyone. What those works of culture would it be like? They'd be bland, tasteless, vanilla. Such works wouldn't offend anyone, but would not appeal to anyone either. But what if we used diversity and inclusion in a smart way instead? We could have different works of culture appealing to different people with different tastes and sensibilities. It would make more sense for a fast-paced action game for the protagonist to be young and maybe have an older mentor. On the other hand, in other type of game, older and more experienced protagonist could be a better choice. You could also play around with it. For an RPG like Baldur's Gate 3, I don't see age of characters mattering one way or the other. As I said before:
I agree: the more options, the better. Providing that the execution is well of course.


I am basing the above paragraph around the differences of comic books vs manga actually. Western comic books (I mean mainly Marvel and DC) are diverse and inclusive in very superficial ways, resulting in subpar products quite often. On the other hand, mangas have a variety of different genres and topics for different audiences. So if you are interested in specific topic/demographic etc. there is probably many titles to choose from for that.

One more thing regarding creativity: limitations doesn't shut down creativity. Working around limitations in fact stimulates it.

As for the final argument, I am well aware that kids aren't only influenced by parents. But it is parents' responsibility to be aware of what influences their kids. All of the studies you linked were about social media, and here's why I said parents shouldn't expect for everyone else to raise their kids for them - because I know how harmful social media can be, especially since young age. Influencing social media the way it was proposed in this topic sounds to me like suppressing the symptoms of a disease rather than curing said disease.

As for RE in particular, I don't know what Capcom is thinking, especially since I can think of an example from their game that indicates they're not afraid to show a competent older woman.

As for Jaheira - I am glad she is in BG3, I am going to be glad about it still. About romance, I don't care either way if she'll have one. If she does, cool. If she doesn't, I kinda understand on more level than "she's old".
 

Urdnot_Wrex

Innkeeper
Staff member
Messages
711
There's nothing wrong with older mentors, or old witches for that matter, and of course it makes more sense for fast-paced action games to have a young main character, because it's often some elite soldier or a coming-of-age story or whatever.
But especially with female characters in games, often anything between 20-ish heroine and 70-ish mentor/witch/grandmother simply doesn't exist.
What is odd too, is that Capcom made the male characters age appropriately while coming up with a fancy explanation that stopped aging in the woman. Why?

I'm not trying to make a drama out of this, I just think it's great to remember that people don't die or turn into Gandalf immediately after their 30th birthday.
Showing real humans (or elves, dwarves, aliens) with all their flaws and imperfections, strengths and vulnerabilities, has always made stories more interesting. That includes the fact that characters in a game that goes over several decades, or a franchise that warms up the same people after years, will change. Acknowledging that is human, and healthy.

And yes, it is a very big deal how the madness about perfection, eternal youth and distorted body image is having an impact on people, especially young people.

As for the final argument, I am well aware that kids aren't only influenced by parents. But it is parents' responsibility to be aware of what influences their kids. All of the studies you linked were about social media, and here's why I said parents shouldn't expect for everyone else to raise their kids for them - because I know how harmful social media can be, especially since young age.

I don't want to get too personal, but I don't think you're aware of what you're saying by blaming the parents.
It is possible to talk a lot to children and keep them away from social media for a long time, and to continue talking to them about what is and isn't realistic, and how people edit pictures and how cosmetics industry lies, and how influencers look and talk like their friends but earn money with the stuff they recommend.

Then take a pandemic, where a kid of 11 years begs for her first mobile phone to stay in touch with her friends. With severe time restrictions and with sites and apps like YouTube and Instagram blocked or showing videos for age 6+ only. And complaining already that all her friends are allowed more.
Then take school in lockdown, all online, can't keep all restrictions in place then, but can't keep sitting there and watching what else the kid reads and watches, even with safety filters and child control apps in place. Some measure of trust must be possible, I'm a mother, not a spy, and parents needed to continue going to work even with schools closed, surprisingly.
Kids get older, school starts again, which parent can honestly say they can and should know and control everything a 13 year old talks and watches with her friends? It's slow trickles of influence, and conversations and communication at home continue, but there comes a time when they listen more to their peers than their parents, and what they see online every day becomes slowly the new normal.
Every age filter hides nipple pictures, but I'd infinitely prefer them to see what normal bodies look like than to constantly see digitally edited and surgically or cosmetically enhanced plastic doll faces everywhere.

So no, parents don't expect everyone else to raise their children for them. But they also can't be expected to withhold devices with internet connection until age 18, or to constantly stalk them, or lock them up so that they don't watch or discuss anything with friends.
 

O_Bruce

Habitué
Messages
172
We are getting into off-topic of an off-topic here. This will be my last response here and I'll try to do as much tl;dr version as possible.
- Never I mentioned spying or being a controlling parent. On that note, I think that parenting style is really damaging.
- Kids access to social media isn't all or nothing. There's lot of areas in between
- I do agree that trust is especially important
- Encouraging your kid to try different experiences is much healthier than leaving them with a tablet and access to the internet. I don't think that's objectionable.
- Above being said, access to the internet itself isn't a bad thing, as long as it is just one of the different experiences. I don't think that's objectionable.
- Being interested in and talking with your kid about their experiences isn't a bad thing. For one, you can understand more about the kid, you can bond with them better. You can react better when the kid is in trouble. You even have better chances of noticing, for example, self-image problems as result of social media exposure mixed with puberty
I lived through that, I know
. And so on and so on.

There are many more things left to be said, but it is supposed to be tl;dr. So peace.
 

Antimatter

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
796
As often in our life, some bad news changes with some good news. Sounds like the new D&D movie will be a good one, and, I would think, it should help BG3 as well, as both products are targeting D&D players and those who are interested in D&D.

 

Zaxares

Habitué
Messages
16
So pleeeeaaaase Larian, make Jaheira a romance option! :)
I'll support this ONLY if there's a way for us to specify in BG3 if our Bhaalspawn from BG2 romanced Jaheira and she actually remembers this (or conversely, she rejects the BG3 player because she's still in love with/in a relationship with Gorion's Ward). ;) As far as I know, Larian's been conspicuously silent on whether there's any way we can have our decisions in the first two games recognized in the third, right?
 

Urdnot_Wrex

Innkeeper
Staff member
Messages
711
I'll support this ONLY if there's a way for us to specify in BG3 if our Bhaalspawn from BG2 romanced Jaheira and she actually remembers this (or conversely, she rejects the BG3 player because she's still in love with/in a relationship with Gorion's Ward). ;) As far as I know, Larian's been conspicuously silent on whether there's any way we can have our decisions in the first two games recognized in the third, right?

In character reply: Jaheira is a druid. She knows life and death are just part of the natural balance, and while she mourns the dead and keeps their memory in her heart, she is also ready to move on and love again without remaining stuck in the past. And in 100 years, a lot of things can happen.

Out of character reply: The end of BG2/ToB was 100 years past in the in-game timeline, ToB was released 22 years before BG3. Even BG2 completely ignored what choices you made with companions, who you never took with you, who got killed or who you even killed yourself, you still start with the same group of people at Irenicus' place.
So the best tradition to honour the old games would be to equally ignore all previous player choices ;).

On the pragmatic note, there were so many different options. You could have left Jaheira in that cage. She could have been killed on the way. She could have left you because of your conduct. You could have romanced her or not, and then you could have taken one of the different paths at the end of ToB, and then in case you remained mortal you could have played a race with a different lifespan that has to be taken into account.

Larian devs have never given any indication that decisions from the first games would be recognized in BG3 at all, and frankly, unless it really influences the story, I wouldn't even want them to, because without a heavy impact on continuity of the new game it would just look like pointless fanservice. If it had a bigger impact, though, it would put people who haven't played the old BG games at a disadvantage.
To add so many prompts about possible choices concerning Minsc, Jaheira, player race and gender and ToB decisions just for an Easter Egg seems like wasted resources to me and very unlikely too.
 

mlnevese

Innkeeper
Staff member
Messages
400
A half-elf's life expectancy in 5th edition is around 180-200 years... She's not the young druid we met in the first games. Also, BG 3 to be authorized by Hasbro must follow the official Forgotten Realms canon; so that's what we'll get as background in BG3. It isn't and has never been in Larian's power to decide to follow the player's choice in the first two games.
 

Nimran

Habitué
Messages
112
By the time this game comes out, I’ll have my dream job and a shiny new pc to play it on. Nice!

As far as I’m concerned, Starfield may as well not even be there. Bethesda’s latest games have been pretty bad, and I‘ve just lost interest in them at this point. At the very least, I’ll wait until the modding community has its turn at fixing Bethesda’s game for them before I buy it.
 
Top Bottom