BG Classic Trilogy: The one where I've lost my marbles

[Antimatter]

Yeah, I wouldn't discard BG3 that easily, even taking into account @JustKneller 's opinion about the original game. BG3 is a Larian game, this is huge in its own way. There are not many turn-based games that are not JRPGs that are amazing. Larian's TB approach, as well as verticality, and the complex number of options you always have in this or that encounter, is massive.

So if you're worried about 5E in a videogame, maybe focus more on the gameplay itself, and BG3 will click for you.

But then again, nothing is guaranteed, as @mlnevese 's example shows.

 

[mlnevese]

And BTW, I'm addicted to BG3. I think it has enormous flaws, but it still has its own magic - or, at least, those of us who like it think so.

I've made peace with the fact that I tried to like it and just can't. I have no issues with other people liking it.

 

[JustKneller]

There are not many turn-based games that are not JRPGs that are amazing.

That's something that has always perplexed me. If I'm being honest, the gameplay itself in my favorite JRPGs is not exactly groundbreaking. It boils down to a fight/magic/special/item menu with some minor resource management and some mini-games on the side. But, the art and sound is quite well done for the time and the writing is top notch. The games that do well, excel in this area. Those that don't fall short. I think it takes about just as much time to create bad art or write a bad story than it does to create quality, it's just a matter of having the right talent. So, from a business point of view, I don't see why American designers haven't picked up on that model. Instead, we get overly ambitious with the gameplay design and aesthetics (but slack off on QA and quality of the narrative). It's cleverness without wisdom. JRPGs are definitely "simpler" than American RPGs, on average. American projects seem to consistently have the problem of their reach exceeding their grasp.

Fallout 4 is a great example of it. Amazing premise, insightful twist on the SPECIAL system, even base building (which is new for the series) is not terrible to start for their first go. But, 10 hours into the game, everything breaks. The story goes to shit, the balance goes out the window, and your post apocalyptic settlements are drowing in food and water while cows are reproducing and spawning on your roofs. Conversley (and I'm talking out of my ass at this point, but taking what you @Antimatter has told me in good faith), Nier Automata is a total fucking banger, even though it's a "simpler" game.

and the complex number of options you always have in this or that encounter, is massive.

I wonder how much of this is an illusion. I haven't played BG3, obviously, so I could be way off base here (tell me if I am), but I expect that if it's an American RPG, and based on D&D, and set in the Forgotten Realms, I'm guessing that many encounters (at best) boil down to (multiple) paths that end in combat or talking your way out of the situation and only have tangential impact on the storyline.

And, I'm not criticizing it if this is the case because really, all games are like this to any extent. PS:T ends one of two ways which both boil down to one way. IWD is straight linear. Even all the Final Fantasy games have a very specific arc. Not too many games have branching stories with multiple conclusions. Fallout does a bit of this, Deus Ex did, I'm sure there are others. I think it's the nature of the medium. If you look at RPG books (like the Choose Your Own Adventure type with RPG mechanics), you're actually quite limited in your branching due to page count. The same applies to computer games since it all needs to be coded.

So, when I think of encounter options, it makes me think of Pillars of Eternity (which I've played) where you can choose options based on your dispositions. Your choices only impact (micro)composition, but not arc. And, it's nice that it does this, but this feature doesn't make or break a game, especially since having the options are undermined by all roads leading to "and now you die!" (or something similar).

 

[Antimatter]

Well, that's a lot, not sure how to handle it all. Let's see.

First of all, Larian is a European game developer, not American. They've existed for more than 20 years already. Old Ultima games influence their design. So player agency plays a huge role in their games.

If it's the D&D ruleset that worries you, I would recommend trying out Divinity: Original Sin II right away. An excellent tactical game from Larian.

Comparing PoE to Larian games is like comparing T-800 to T-1000 in the Terminator world.

If you're looking for a good story, you need to search for good story-based games. NieR would be like that, yes. More direct and shorter playthrough times.

 

[Black Elk]

I think you owe it to yourself to suffer through BG3 as well, at some point

You know, for the mad science, if nothing else.

I mean I'm not saying you're going to necessarily enjoy it when all is said and done, but I think it might scratch some sort of itch.

Is it always good to scratch the itch? I don't know lol. Most times the Doc would say not to scratch, but in the moment and for the feels, the Scratch did the trick for me! BG1 and 2 felt pretty North American I would say. BG3 by contrast feels like the most Belgian thing I could possibly imaginable, but they cast a fairly wide net. To me the overall production feels very much like - British filmmaker makes a movie in Ireland, and then mints a whole bunch of new stars in the process. That would be my analogy I guess. If BG 1/2 is Star Wars OT and BG Enhanced is SW SE, then BG3 is way more like Excalibur 1981. Like kinda left field and not really the same thing at all, aside from the operatic callbacks lol. Lauded at the time and in retrospect, but also a total hot mess (isn't that what Ebert said? lol). But then it gave us Helen Mirren and the charm of making, and I love it, so it's basically the same sort of thing right? hehe

I have all sorts of gripes about the BG games, but usually it's the minor mechanical things that annoy me, as opposed to characterization or story incongruities or things of that sort. For me the best part in a BG game is rarely an encounter or a plot reveal or a character moment, and instead will be some zen out moment between rests, where I have entered the trance state and the dragon is just sorta everywhere all around. Ambient music and doing some sort of 100 yard stare leveling up with the sunrise and totally sleep deprived. Fantasy already seems like a bit of a knock off genre to me though, so I think I'm predisposed to allow more schlock into these things, like I know that's true for me. And then on top of that, BG FR is basically a pastiche or an inside joker's take on that, sorta squarely operating within the realm of hambones and cliches taken to their maximalist extreme hehe. Maybe if I'd received it at a different stage of life, or if I'd been armed with a more critical awareness or experience of other things to compare it against, but to me it felt enough like the generic D&D and other sword and sorcery things I enjoyed at the time. It seemed cool, probably in the way that smoking seemed cool to me when I was in highschool lol. These are mostly irrational things. I think it appealed to my sense of compulsion and repetition for sure. I'm not sure how I'd have felt about Icewind Dale or Planescape if I'd played those first, or before BG. To me they both felt like riffs on BG since they used the same game engine, so the later entries maybe seemed slightly less innovative or memorable to me on that count probably. I recall IWD feeling like a supped up version of the BG engine where they felt like FR siblings, whereas Planescape felt like a second cousin, just in terms of how things worked and the layouts, also the art direction.

I'd say what it does pretty well is the emergent gameplay, or just sorta capturing some sense of imminence for a 4 person crew. BG1/2 I could solo and that felt rewarding, but when playing BG3 it's more about all the little knockons and surprises that happen in the moment. The story is absolutely absurd, the haul is full Monty, like none of your complaints with the original will have been addressed, I can almost guarantee. You'll find the same funnels, and mad arborists hacking off branches before they have a chance to spread out. Some things in those departments probably nose dive even harder than the originals, and yet the game still pulled off something pretty special. I'd never seen a cRPG do what Larian did with BG3 or imagined that I'd get to see D&D done up in this way, and I was bitter and grumpy for like the entirety of the Early Access. I mean it's not just illusion, it's like use your illusion II or something hehe, but still worth checking out.

Here's an interesting snippet from Bob the builder the other day, sorta captures the Larian vibe I'd say, straight from the horse's nightmare mouth... lol. It's only just a quick couple second aside, but has that clip from the award ceremony.



I gotta say I was pretty stoked to see KCDII and then Clair Obscur sorta answering and throwing the lit torch into the next room. That latter also has like half the same cast as BG3, so that's kinda wild. I wonder if part of the positive reception there and early word of mouth came from fans of the BG3 mo cap stars, because Expedition 33 also had Lae'zel and Jaheira, and Shadowheart, just with like Andy Serkis added to the team now too!?

Spoiler

I need to swoop that one! Like talk about full circle and making it ring! lol

 

[JustKneller]

Just when I thought I was out...

I have no idea why. I just have a hankering to solo this game. I really need to consider changing my previous 0/5 rating for it. I think that was partly motivated by the fatigue you feel at the end of a straight run. Like, you think a marathon is a great idea, so you train for it, sign up and when that starting pistol fires, you're feeling great. But, eventually you get to the last mile and you're aching and tired, you've shit your shorts, you question how you ever thought this was a good idea. And, when you finish, you're just glad you finished and tell yourself never again...until the next marathon comes to town.

Here I am, about to start another run. I have a fresh pair of shorts on and a gleam in my eye. Having stepped away from this game for a while, I think I can give a more detached and less shit-in-my-shorts take on the game. I know it is a legendary entry in the cRPG genre. It was technically not the first cRPG to use AD&D, but the gold box games did not have the capacity to implement as much of the AD&D system as BG nor build much of a story. BG is definitely an RPG. It might not feel like playing AD&D, but there's at least something there. And, it definitely has a story. It's a little weak and has a lot of holes, but it's a big (and over the top) story. I'm not sure I can give it a fair rating as a video gamer in general because I know D&D so well and that biases me. If I compare it to Planescape, Planescape has a much better story and aesthetics. Planescape's implementation of the ruleset is about as far off the rails as BG, but it wasn't slipshod layers of munchkinism and then corrections. Torment's gameplay supported the experience it was trying to create. If I compare it to Icewind Dale, then Icewind Dale blows BG out of the water with implementation. It also has a better aesthetic. I dare say, it had a stronger story, too. It was simpler, but just because you have the 152-color set of Crayola crayons, it doesn't mean you need to use every single crayon and draw back over something you already drew like -ahem- other games. Icewind Dale uses very few colors, but used them well.

But, there are some good things here. Durlag's Tower is really probably the best designed dungeon in any IE game, including any dungeon in Icewind Dale, a dedicated dungeon crawler. The first game, on its own, can stand on its own two feet with the story (for the most part). Minsc, Jan, and a few other characters were well done. That's not nothing. Really, the only sin was that they lost their way somewhere along the way in the second game and jumped the shark. So it goes. And, I have to give it credit. Something compels me to come back from time to time.

That being said, I want to eat a smidgen of crow and adjust my prior assessment of the game. Both Icewind Dale and Planescape are solid 4/5 games for me (pushing 5/5). I would probably put the first game in that 4/5 neighborhood, but the whole series drops it down to a solid 2/5 pushing a 3. I expect I will be posting my solo run in the Candlekeep Annex thread. I'm not sure how far I will make it and I've clogged up this forum with enough unfinished runs.