Does anyone remember how ROUGH BGEE's initial release was?

[Black Elk]

Probably because I'm a bit lost in the weeds here trying to differentiate between what I would be willing to do personally, vs what I could recommend to a brand new player in 2024. Especially one who is perhaps less invested in Original BG experience than the subsequent Saga BG experience.

If it already seems challenging for someone like me, who's been down these roads many times before, just to get back to the OG presentation, it's easy to imagine how accessibility could be the determining factor. Like say someone is on a Playstation or whatever, then it's like the difference between being the best cause it's the only way to play vs being the only way to play cause it's best, if that makes sense hehe. I sometimes lament that slightly younger people who came along later will have a different experience of it than I did, due to the changing nature of the beast, but then that's so tough to avoid now and I wouldn't knock the later thing if someone said they preferred it, even though I have some misgivings.

I know what G3 is cause I remember kicking around that spot at the time. I hear Unfinished Business, and I know what it means from the old installs, the Unfinished Business vs the New Business, feels different to me, same as Tutu was different, or editing in new Shar Teel romances and proficiencies for the BG1 NPC project (guilty as charged! lol), but to explain the BG whys to someone brand new seems kinda daunting, which is kind of a dilemma.

Also in assembling the portrait library or whatever customizer things, like would I really have them go oldschool there, or just suggest the upscaled newer format so they can use their pathfinder portraits too? Like there's just a lot to ponder for me on this one. I think it would be nice to have a currated Classic mode or hybrid choose your own adventure specs mode, charted out roughly by release date chronology.

On the other hand I also see why they did certain things the way they did, beamdog I mean, so I feel like its fine to have a default EE there and a Classic being the opt in option, second launch tab or whatever. I think it would be nice to have that on Steam. I probably should have re-bought the thing on GoG, but I'm just rolling with the dice where they landed now. It's tough sometimes

ps. The latest strategy I find for anything online anywhere that gets kinda heated, is just to imagine that space mages are battling and whatever incantations, one hopes are kinda mostly lighthearted hehe. Similar to Conan the Destroyer news too I guess, like gotta just kinda laugh it off. Most of the Jedi across the galaxy are probably in hiding today anyway.



Good times though! May the force be with you, and also with you

 

[Fandraxx]

I hope @Fandraxx doesn't feel discouraged from publishing new videos with feedback like that. It wasn't a video that claimed to be an expert opinion with all points present, it wasn't a video by an industry specialist, and it wasn't a video to convince other people. It was just a video with a personal opinion of its author. When I watched it, I personally thought it included a lot of anti-EE points and was full of criticism. Turns out, other people found it full of criticism for pre-EE games. I think all opinions are fine.

I'm certainly not discouraged. Most of the response, here and on YouTube, has been quite nice - a lot of good discussion and back and forth and what not. I always try to provide a lot of talking points, but I'm well aware my videos aren't all-encompassing.

That's one of my main points right there. It doesn't come off as "hey, this is just how I like to play the game but there are still advantages to the originals". It comes off as, "The EE is best and the originals are now obsolete and pointless," which is just biased, propagandist, and untrue. Each version is a significantly different experience.



The thing is, your presentation is rather biased and tries to pass off opinion as fact. I mean, you really go off the rails at around 7:30. You have a comms degree, I would think you would be able to see this. I would honestly recommending re-cutting that part, take out the snark and derision (calling people "misguided", telling them to "get over it", etc.), and present it as proper editorial.

What I also know, by virtue of having a Communications degree, is that the last thing I owe anyone for an opinion piece presented in an informal format in a video series I make for fun in my spare time is a "proper" editorial. The entire point of my doing this is to get away from having to follow strict guidelines and standards as mandated (and unquestionably warranted) by more formal and official writing avenues. I'm sorry you disagree with my opinion and how I said it, but I don't take kindly to being called a propagandist because of said disagreement.

 

[JustKneller]

I'm sorry you disagree with my opinion and how I said it, but I don't take kindly to being called a propagandist because of said disagreement.

If someone on the OG side of the matter did the same thing, I'd have the same response, even though I might agree that the OGs are preferable. In fact, I would probably be harsher about it because I wouldn't want one of "my own" acting a fool and then I'd potentially be associated with that. It's not really about the disagreement on perspective, it's mostly about how it's communicated. You offer assertions and half-truths in your video that are heavily biased towards a particular point of view and ignore or dismiss the rest of the picture that would give a more accurate account of the matter. That's the literal definition of propaganda.

The entire point of my doing this is to get away from having to follow strict guidelines and standards as mandated (and unquestionably warranted) by more formal and official writing avenues.

So you're actually not looking to tap into the virtue of your comms degree and produce quality content, you're just riffing for lulz. Ok, sure, it's the internet. There's plenty of that out there and plenty of room for more, so you're in good company. There's really nothing to discuss then. Mission accomplished?

 

[Cahir]

I'm going to guess this is because you can't get the original game anymore. I still have my CDs, but I picked up the GoG version of the originals once CDs stopped being a thing (so I could play on newer hardware). Once Beamdog took over, you could only get the original if you bought the EE and even then, you needed some kind of key to get the originals. However, I heard that the keys were limited and eventually only the EE was left. I could be wrong, though, since I've never had to deal with that myself.

Well, those modders that decided to make a mod(s) to remove/alter some elements of EEs are usually veteran players who already owns original games (which are not removed from their accounts because of EE). So, they can still play original versions (with or without ToBex). But instead, they chose to mould the version they dislike to be like the version they still can play. As for new players, they are unbiased by the nostalgia factor, which I suppose is the key elements for those who prefer the original version to EE, so it's likely they won't get distracted by changes introduced by Beamdog, and they'll find them a core part of the game. I can hardly imagine a new player, I mean someone really new to BG franchise, to specifically look to play the original game, if he can easily pick a remastered version from Steam, GOG or even mobile and console. You may of course disagree with this, but I find many of those complaints (like the sounds, paperdolls, UI style etc) more of a nostalgic feeling for good old days, when gaming was simple, rather than true quality difference between both versions. Of course, I agree there are some elements, especially in BGEE (like awful new items or writing/story not necessarily blending with vanilla content) warrant to be complained at, and I wouldn't mind an ingame slider option to play only original content, but the worst case scenario one can skip this content, as Fandraxx consciously pointed out.

 

[Xzarloxara]

I watched your video and found it quite interesting. I didn't come onto the scene until after the issues with the Intel Chipset were fixed. By that time the issues with the source art were largely forgotten too, so it is good to get some background on all that. I agree with most of the sentiments you expressed in the video too, and I didn't see anything really wrong with your soapbox segment. You just shared your opinion. Why people are getting so worked up about it is beyond me, other than that supporting Beamdog in any way, shape, or form seems to have become taboo in many internet communities, sadly. This shouldn't be an issue here, I would hope, however.

As a side note, I worked very hard on the EEs over the years; both for Beamdog officially and unofficially, as both a volunteer and a paid contractor. I have also learned some modest modding skills for the EEs, and have made some modest mods for them. As such, I could never go back to the originals. I don't begrudge people who prefer the originals, but at the same time I don't completely understand them. Ah well, to each his own, I guess...

 

[JustKneller]

@Antimatter

As such, I could never go back to the originals. I don't begrudge people who prefer the originals, but at the same time I don't completely understand them.

I thought @BelgarathMTH did a really great job highlighting some of the significant aesthetic and gameplay differences between the two, as well as why one might be preferable to the other. And, that only scratched the surface.

I worked ... for Beamdog officially and unofficially, as both a volunteer and a paid contractor.

This reminds me of a story.

I'm American, but both sides of my family are from "the old country". As such, while this is quite unusual for someone of my generation (I'm barely in my 40s), I started working at the age of 10, legally at 13. The work ethic, and ethics in general, an "old country" family instills in a person are significant. I mention this because I once worked at McDonald's. This was my late teens, possibly during my college years (I worked a lot of jobs then to pay the part of my tuition that my scholarships didn't cover). It was literally the only job I ever had where I stopped showing up. I didn't quit or give my resignation. I just decided I was going to stop going to this place. That's saying a lot for me. I didn't even pick up my last check. Five years later I get a check from the state treasury's unclaimed wages department for somewhere around $100. I had totally forgotten about the job at that point.

But, the story is actually about how the job started, not how it ended. The few of us recent hires sat down at a table with the assistant manager for orientation. He was a real company man. This was his path. I'm not judging him for it or anything. An honest living is an honest living. But, he told us about how McDonald's food was so much better than Burger King and that he would occasionally eat there but the food, especially the fries, would just make him sick. He didn't understand why people would even eat there. I mean, clearly he was just towing the company line. McDonald's, Burger King, it's all the same crappy food with the same crappy shoestring fries, and the same crappy sodas (just that some are made by Pepsi and the others are made by Coke). But, I asked him a question and it froze him in his tracks. I asked, "Why are you regularly eating at the competition?" He didn't have an answer for that one.

 

[Xzarloxara]

I thought @BelgarathMTH did a really great job highlighting some of the significant aesthetic and gameplay differences between the two, as well as why one might be preferable to the other. And, that only scratched the surface.

Yeah, I saw that list. Most of the things mentioned there can be fixed with already existing mods and have a very minor impact on overall gameplay and aesthetics anyway. To me, using these reasons would be like turning down a fine new house and favoring an old and broken down one that is constantly giving you trouble because you don't like the color of the closet paint in the new house. I don't understand that, especially considering you could always just repaint the closet...

This reminds me of a story.

And I suppose this story is meant to illustrate that I am blindly following the company line? I disagree with a great many things Beamdog has done with the games over the years. In most of these cases, I just repaint the closet.

It should also be noted that I was, in no way, in a leadership role at Beamdog. You may equate my role as a temporary burger flipper at McDonalds, who usually didn't even get paid for it, I might add.

 

[m7600]

Well, in any case, I think it's good the discussion about the EEs/SoD in general has moved on from "how cool/uncool is it that Beamdog added a black lesbian vampire / bisexual orc / transexual priest of Tempus" like it's 2016.

 

[JustKneller]

Yeah, I saw that list. Most of the things mentioned there can be fixed with already existing mods and have a very minor impact on overall gameplay and aesthetics anyway.

I'm not being crass, but I'm not sure what you mean by "fixed by already existing mods"? There was nothing on his list to fix. Or, are you saying that he could just get the EE and then use mods to convert it back to the OG? If so, isn't that exactly what Fandraxx was criticizing in his video. In fact, he was suggesting that one can just ignore the extra content and it would be just like the OG. Even if that was true, that then means that one would need to spend the game engaging in the immersion breaking chore of micromanaging content (What did I get? Hojar's Fame? Let me check the list. Oh, that's EE so I'll just ignore it). But yeah, I'm not 100% sure what you were going for here.

I think it's a little out of line to declare what's a major vs. minor impact to gameplay or aesthetics. That's really in the eye of the player, not for anyone else to decide. I'm really trying to avoid getting lost in the weeds with you on this one, though. I think you'd be dismissive of an alternative opinion anyway.

To me, using these reasons would be like turning down a fine new house and favoring an old and broken down one that is constantly giving you trouble

And I think that is a really biased analogy. I still play the originals on new hardware and it doesn't give me any trouble. The process to get the game installed and running is almost identical between the games. For the EE, you just need to install the game, install the G3 fixpack, and then play the game. For the OGs, you just need to install the game, install the G3 fixpack, and then play the game. I think, at one point, I might have had to change one of the rendering options because of a minor graphic glitch on this laptop. It's certainly no reason to buy a "new" game and then have to mod the crap out of it to get it back to where I want it. I'm sure some people are going to have trouble with the OGs on their hardware, but some people will have trouble with the EEs. Neither are exactly pristine

And I suppose this story is meant to illustrate that I am blindly following the company line?

Not so much. Or, not anything that extreme. You chose to work for Beamdog. You chose to volunteer there. You clearly agree with and are invested in that one particular vision for the game, at least more so than most. The fact that you see the originals as this old broken down home and have this absolutist perspective that the EEs are the only way to play is a reflection of your bias. The fact that you're dismissive of someone who can actually detail what they like better about the originals is a reflection of your bias. I dunno, maybe you are blindly following the company line. I mean seriously, say what you want about me, I can be an irritating prick and I probaby deserve it. But Belgarath is a super nice guy with good points and writing him off is, well, something Antimatter probably doesn't want me saying here. So, I'll leave it at that.

So, let me try another story. I have a friend and we're both gamers. We like tabletop and we like D&D. We have very different motivations for gaming. We get along just fine. The thing is, and these are essentially his words, his life sucks and gaming gives him an escape from that. He likes the newer editions because it's less of a meatgrinder and more of a you can be what you want to be and be amazing at it. I tend to prefer OSR and TSRs editions of the game. I want a meatgrinder. I got a good life, I got a good wife, but I have a job that barely requires me to rub two brain cells together. I would honestly get a second full time job that I would work while I work this job, except that's salary fraud and I don't want to go to jail. But, I'm actually working as I type this. Anyway, I want a challenge. I want limited resources that I have to manage well. I want bad choices to have bad consequences and the badder the choice the badder the consequences. I don't want a twinked out munchkin character. I want someone with flaws and I want to have to work with that in creative ways. I knew the risks when I took the job.

When this friend and I happen to be at the same table, we help each other out. If we're playing something munchkiny, he'll use his character to throw some interesting obstacles at mine. If we're playing OSR or the like, I'll basically be a support resource for his character to protect him from strife, which usually only causes problems for me, but hey, I'm into that, so it's all good.

And that's really what's at the core here. The EE is not a replacement for the OG. You can't make the EE function like the OG without reaching around your head to wipe your ass. The EE and the OG do different things. If you want to scratch a powergaming itch, the EE will do that better. If you prefer fidelity to an original vision and more challenging gameplay design, then the OG is the way to go. Arguing about this over BG is probably quite silly, though. Even the OG is the most munchkiny of all the IE games (and probably any RPG I've ever played). The EE just chose to lean into that harder.

Anyway, that's why this friend and I get along. We don't think our approach to gaming is any better than the other. We recognize why our different approaches work for us and respect it. We certainly don't take some absurd absolutist stance on a luxury hobby and then dismiss the other because they are different. But, I think that kind of decency is generally sorely lacking in our hobby. I am totally cool with people who prefer something different than what I like. But, when someone says that they like XYZ, and their preference is the best and someone else's is misguided or wrong, even if I have the same preference, I'll pick that bone if only on principle. Besides, like I said, my job is really boring and I have a lot of free time!

 

[BelgarathMTH]

@JustKneller , thanks for your supportive posts; I appreciate it. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who likes original BG, and that I'm not the only one who thought the video that started all this was, well, maybe unnecessarily confrontational and dismissive of other people's tastes and opinions.

Just for the record, I'm not anti-EE, at all. I own two copies of it - I bought it from Beamdog through their client early on, to support them, and I bought it again through Steam just for my own convenience. There are times when I have a character idea I want to run where I still need it, mostly if I want to play a half-orc in BG1 or run a kit in BG1. The widescreen support is nice, and it's a great-looking version of the game when I want that.

I was active on their forums for years, sharing journaled runs using the EE's and forming online friendships with many other posters.

I'd probably recommend the EE to anybody new who wants to try the game, because I think it will appeal better to a contemporary gamer's tastes than the original.

I use the original game when I want a nostalgia fix, or when I want the extra challenge, because the original game wasn't balanced for the presence of kits, and I already listed the other ways the original game provides more challenge than the EE version. It just depends on my mood. Recently, I've been more interested in the original. Plus, I always love to see a documented run or an LP of the original, just because it's so rare to see these days.

I'd say my overall preference for the original version and the extra challenge that comes with it has some to do with my age, but I think I'm older than you, so that might not be the full explanation. For me, there's definitely some nostalgia in it, but I guess it comes down finally to a matter of personal taste. We're all different people.

Honestly, some of the arguments I've read, or the way some are choosing to express their opinions, it winds up sounding to me like, "I like pizza. I don't like hamburgers. I don't see why anybody could possibly prefer a hamburger to a pizza. I just don't understand it. People who like hamburgers better than pizza should get over themselves. Besides, they could just add tomato sauce to the burger, and toast the bun, and then it would taste like pizza."

Is that me being just as dismissive as I've suggested that they're being? I'm trying to write in good humor here, but it can be hard to convey a lighter mood on the internet without causing more offense.

We should all probably just agree to disagree at this point and let it go. You know, we could all go outside and touch the grass, as the saying goes. Peace, everyone.

 

[JustKneller]

You know, we could all go outside and touch the grass, as the saying goes.

Well, I don't like grass and anyone who wants to go outside and touch it is misguided and should get over it.

I was active on their forums for years, sharing journaled runs using the EE's and forming online friendships with many other posters.

Since I started getting back into the game again, I've been googling the hell out of it to brush up on my game knowledge. Prior to last year, when I came here, I think it was a solid couple of years since my last go at it, so I've forgotten some things. In any event, I've actually noticed a lot of your contributions on the beamdog forum and even Reddit. It's always been quality stuff. You definitely exceed the standards of the internet, which granted is a really low bar, but I still mean it as a compliment. I just thought it warranted mentioning.

I use the original game when I want a nostalgia fix, or when I want the extra challenge

I think this is a touchy point on the EE side of things and I see a version of this dynamic in tabletop. Whenever someone asks me if I'd like to play 5e (over something else), I try to leave it at "no thanks, it's not for me". If they really push, then I say, "Well, I'm not really into power fantasy". And if they really, really, really, push (though they almost never do), I would have to say something like, "well, the goal of power fantasy isn't to actually challenge players, but give them a winning feeling without having to work too hard for it." And that last part is where people get touchy. You can't really enjoy the win-feels if there's someone around that reminds you that it's really all just a big wank.

That being said, I am ever so slightly tempted to get the EEs, and if they hit a GoG sale where I can get both 1 and 2 for under $10, I just might. The reason is that even the original game can be a bit of a faceroll. I just finished DT with my current party (and no significant difficulty) prior to the bandit camp on the MQ. Now that I'm back on track, I'm sure I'll be coasting until the end game. However, the one advantage the EEs have is that I can run SCS with both BG1 and BG2, instead of just BG2. Even though the overall gameplay is easier, I can ignore the more unbalancing features (e.g. kits), run a purist party, and actually possibly have a tougher game. I don't like the look of the EE, but maybe I can find a mod to restore the UI. I really should be running with SCS in general, though. I think the #1 reason I never finish a run is that the game gets easy as characters power up, and then I get bored.

 

[O_Bruce]

II get where @BelgarathMTH is coming from, reading his post reminded me of some awesome small things and details about the original release of Baldur's Gate that still live rent-free in my head, sound design in particular. The sound of swinging a weapon, the sound of bowstrings and so, and so on. I can add something that list: the Armor spell. When cast, you heard a sharp, metallic sound and the caster's colors became metal-like as well, only for it to fade to normal colours and with cool sound effect. I can't quite verbalize it, but it is a graphic-sound design that stayed in my memory. I was kinda disappointed it didn't work that way in original IWD and BG2.

That being said, I was convinced that regardless of Enhanced Edition's merits, I'd be playing the originals for nostalgia, at least from time to time, but I was proven wrong. I found EEs just better to play, no questions asked.

Lastly, something good to remember about discussions, especially on the internet: people voicing their dislike towards things you hold in high regard doesn't mean they say you can't like those things. In that case, it's a simple matter of agreeing to disagree, or to broaden your horizons by learning about other people and what their value. In case someone really just wants you to stop enjoying what you do, most of the time people like that can be ignored - time's better spent on something good instead.