The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for Candlekeep Annex Participants- Newbie or Veteran

[Enuhal]

I see. I basically never use free action as I love my haste effects too much.

Regarding the IWD spells: Yes, they do tend to favor the player in practice, but I was still really surprised when I suddenly lost a character to a triple vitriolic sphere sequencer in my first run with them installed because I saw no good reason to protect against acid damage, as it really doesn't get to be that dangerous unless you're fighting a black dragon.

 

[Alesia_BH]

I see. I basically never use free action as I love my haste effects too much.

I typically play it that way, too. I almost never use Free Action- certainly not in solo play. I didn't use it in Alicia and Alanis's runs either.

I've only been doing it here, with a mixed party in v35, because I haven't seen the scripts. Based on prior experience, I had assumed that arcane Flesh to Stone wasn't a risk in SCS, certainly not in an orc waylay encounter. That assumption almost cost us Minsc. Since then I've been treating this like a blind run. I'm not assuming anything. That means protecting against everything, even threats that seem unlikely to materialize.

The upside of Free Action is that we can open with double Web x 2 Sequencers. I haven't explored that battle plan much, but it was effective in the opening Planar Prison battle. Your quadruple Confusion via nymph approach under Haste is superior, though, if the spacing allows it. It beats Globes and it leaves your mages with clear auras, while permitting use of Haste.

Since it’s been so long since I’ve partied, I’ve been falling back on a soloist’s approach, shutting down all possible threats with defense and deploying restrained, measured offense. Playing a full party permits more aggressive tactics, entailing calculated risks, as you put it, to facilitate quick kills. I’ll toggle into that mindset as my comfort level grows. I’ll acknowledge that I miss the best of all worlds approach of my all arcane crews. We could pre-buffing against all threats, lock in our buffs and feel free to deploy hyper aggressive tactics.

Regarding the IWD spells: Yes, they do tend to favor the player in practice, but I was still really surprised when I suddenly lost a character to a triple vitriolic sphere sequencer in my first run

Noted. I'm sure they can be wielded effectively by the AI, just not as effectively as the player.

I have two principles when I consider mods:

1) Mods should not advantage the player: They should not introduce new items. They should not introduce new abilities. They should not alter the mechanics to the player's benefit. I'm pretty strict about this. It includes convenience and quality of life tweaks. It also includes EE additions, like the new kits and classes. I want any modifications to make the game more difficult, not less: no exceptions. More difficult on average is not sufficient

2) Mods should preserve the original mechanics to the extent possible: I prefer to keep the core mechanics as close to vanilla as possible, in the interest of maximizing relatability for the general player base, most of whom play unmodded. I want my game world to play like vanilla, just with smarter and more deadly enemies. Further, I want all players, including unmodded players, to understand what I am doing, and have access to the same tools. I use the core SCS spell modifications, since the scripts assume them, and most of them -at least the early ones- were introduced to aid the AI. In recent editions, and especially v35, SCS has been integrating more and more spell revisions like changes. Changes have become less about helping the AI and more about providing a broader palate of choices for the player. I don't love that. I'll opt out of that to the extent possible. If I didn't share my runs publicly, I'd be more open to exploring spell revisions like changes. Since I do, maximizing relatability takes precedence over a wider selection of choices, or redressing class imbalances.

The Icewind Dale spells fail both prongs of my test. I'm glad others enjoy them, though!

 

[OrlonKronsteen]

Help, SCS veterans! I’m playing on tactical difficulty: most of the improved AI (monster) components installed, but not the tactical challenges (I find these turn the game into a tedious meat-grinder). I went to Spellhold with exactly 1.25 million exp so I could pick up Imoen at my level. However, I feel very under leveled.

All was well until the Underdark. Specifically, I killed the Kuotoan prince. While in that dungeon, I thought I’d take out the exit guardians. However, they made mince-meat of my party. The cornugons are tore me a new one. I only have one divine caster (Aerie) with two level five slots. That means only one CC. All my buffs get dispelled, and my mages don’t have enough layers of spell protections to prevent the onslaught. All buffs instantly dispelled, PWS (no save), teleport without error… There’s nothing I can do to win this fight. I tried leaving it for later, and went to the demon knight room. Same thing. They wipe me right out, and after over a dozen reloads I don’t see how it’s possible for me to win that fight.

How do you veterens do it? I see you doing seemingly impossibe things. Recently, I saw Alesia_BH complete the Planar Prison BEFORE Spellhold. That is impossible for me. How on earth are you doing this, lol?

 

[Alesia_BH]

Hey there, OrlonKronsteen! I'm glad to see you kicking off a tactical discussion here in the Adventurer's Lounge. I hope we'll see more of that.

The underdark exit party is rough. There's no shame in losing there. The demon knights are brutal, too. David has empowered his demons with nasty abilities, and they don't pull punches. It's easy to hit a brick wall.

You had asked how Alena's crew cleared the Planar Prison at their levels. The answer is simple: plans. We knew what our abilities were, we knew how to wield them, and we knew what we wanted to do in each fight. Even without knowledge of the v35 scripts, we're able to come up with tailored combat strategies for each encounter. None of our plans have been perfect, but a plan doesn't need to be perfect: it just has to work.

First, let's talk about your party. Tell us about your PC, and their companions. We'll need to talk about your items and possibly spell books, too. This may be a rough road, but there are a lot of resources in the Underdark that you can draw on. Maybe we can find a way forward

Cheers!

A.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Oh! Just a quick follow up on an earlier point:

I have two principles when I consider mods:

1) Mods should not advantage the player: They should not introduce new items. They should not introduce new abilities. They should not alter the mechanics to the player's benefit. I'm pretty strict about this. It includes convenience and quality of life tweaks. It also includes EE additions, like the new kits and classes. I want any modifications to make the game more difficult, not less: no exceptions. More difficult on average is not sufficient

I do permit one exception to my no mods that benefit the player rule. Its G3's Free Action Protects Against Stun. Whether is an exception or not is debatable, though, in that the component restores behavior present in the original game, behavior changed by a mod, the G3 Fixpack.

G3 implemented the change in 2007 following a conversation between Camdawg and David Gaider, in which Gaider said Stun was a mental effect and therefore shouldn't be influenced by Free Action. It was a controversial change, with the consensus in the player base being that it would over power stun. At the time the G3 team was focused on realizing developer intent, so Gaider's word was gospel. The community's concern with balance couldn't carry weight in that paradigm. I was an active participant in that discussion, advocating against the change. I ultimately proposed a middle ground where G3 implemented the change in the core fix pack, while simultaneously introducing an optional Free Action Prevents Against Stun component. I don't know if Camdawg acted on my suggestion specifically- maybe he had already thought of that- but it's possible my conversation with Camdawg motivated the component. In light of that history, I feel almost compelled to use it.

 

[Talamir]

Oh! Just a quick follow up on an earlier point:


I do permit one exception to my no mods that benefit the player rule. Its G3's Free Action Protects Against Stun. Whether is an exception or not is debatable, though, in that the component restores behavior present in the original game, behavior changed by a mod, the G3 Fixpack.

G3 implemented the change in 2007 following a conversation between Camdawg and David Gaider, in which Gaider said Stun was a mental effect and therefore shouldn't be influenced by Free Action. It was a controversial change, with the consensus in the player base being that it would over power stun. At the time the G3 team was focused on realizing developer intent, so Gaider's word was gospel. The community's concern with balance couldn't carry weight in that paradigm. I was an active participant in that discussion, advocating against the change. I ultimately proposed a middle ground where G3 implemented the change in the core fix pack, while simultaneously introducing an optional Free Action Prevents Against Stun component. I don't know if Camdawg acted on my suggestion specifically- maybe he had already thought of that- but it's possible my conversation with Camdawg motivated the component. In light of that history, I feel almost compelled to use it.

Interestingly enough (I'm sure you're aware of this) Spell Revisions tweaked Free Action to provide stun immunity (as well as partially allowing Haste effect and having a longer turn/lvl duration).
I personally usually install Klatu tweaks component that allows Haste effect to function with Free Action, but haven't run into a mod other than SR that prevents stun. I'm not a big fan of SR's wholesale systemwide changes to virtually every single spell so I've never installed it, and the Fixpack option isn't available for EE afaik; is there another mod out there that provides stun prevention to FA for EE?

 

[OrlonKronsteen]

Hey Alesia,

Thanks for your offer. It's a lot of info to convey (I haven't done this much typing or data entry since grad school, lol). I feel bad unloading all this. But here's what I've got:

Spoiler

Undead Hunter Charname
Level 14
Weapons: Flail of Ages, Lilacor, Firetooth (crossbow), Mace of Disruption +2
Gear: Full Plate Armour, Ring of Protection +2, Ring of Regeneration, Shield of Harmony, Paladin Bracers (upgraded), Helm of Balduran, Vhailor's Helm, Helm of Charm Protection, Cloak of Cheese, Ring of Free Action
Spells (memorized): Remove Fear, Sanctuary (x2), Protection From Fire, Slow Poison, Remove Paralysis

Spoiler

Valygar
Level 14
Weapons: Corthala Family Blade, Belm, Azuredge, Ripper +2, Spear of Unicorn, Impaler +3
Gear: Family Armour, Ring of Regeneration, Ring of Earth Control, Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, Cloak of Displacement, Gift of Peace (helmet)
Spells (memorized): AOF (x3), Protection From Fire, Slow Poison, Minor Spell Deflection (x2)

Spoiler

Sorcerer
Level 14
Gear: Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power
Spells: Identify, Blindness, Seep, Magic Missile, Spook; Web, Vocalize, Melf's Acid Arrow, Mirror Image, Invisibility; Invisibility 10', Skull Trap, Spell Thrust, Slow; Stoneskin, Secret Word, Greater Malison, Improved Invisibility; Breach, Lower Resistance, Spell Immunity; Death, Improved Haste; Mordenkainen's Sword

Spoiler

Aerie
Level 12/12
Weapons: The Sleeper +2, Sling +2 (situationally uses Flail of Ages and Mace of Disruption +2)
Gear: Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Ring of the Ram, Girdle of Fortitude, Reflection Shield +1, Cloak of Protection +2, The Amplifier, Golem Manual
Mage Spells: Identify, Magic Missile, Charm Person, Colour Spray; Vocalize, Detect Invisibility, Melf's Acid Arrow, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Stinking Cloud; Haste, Skull Trap, Spell Thrust, Invisibility 10', Minor Spell Deflection, Lightning, Fireball; Minor Sequencer, Secret Word, Stoneskin, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Emotion, Greater Malison, Polymorph Self, Fireshield (red and blue), Improved Invisibility; Breach, Lower Resistance, Chaos, Feeblemind, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, Oracle, Minor Spell Turning, Domination, Shadow Door, Hold Monster; Death Fog, Improved Haste, Protection from Magic Weapons, Protection from Magical Energy, Pierce Magic, Invisible Stalker, Contingency, Tenser's Transformation

Spoiler

Imoen
Level 14
Weapons: Tiguan, Arbane's Sword
Gear: Ring of Danger Sense, Shadow Armour, Pale Green Ioun Stone
Spells: Magic Missile, Identify, Chromatic Orb, Shield; Melf's Acid Arrow, Mirror Image, Web, Strength, Enfeeble, Stinking Cloud; Fireball, Haste, Invisibility 10', Remove Magic, Spell Thrust, Skull Trap, Slow, Lightning; Stoneskin, Greater Malison, Secret Word, Spider Spawn, Improved Invisibility, Minor Sequencer, Polymorph Self, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Spirit Armour, Fire Shield (red and blue), Ice Storm; Breach, Chaos, Minor Spell Deflection, Spell Shield, Spell Immunity, Protection from Acid, Shadow Door, Sunfire; True Sight, Tensor's, Invisible Stalker, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Mislead; Mass Invisibility, Finger of Death, Mordenkainen's Sword, Spell Sequencer, Project Image, Delayed Blast Fireball, Prismatic Spray, Summon Effriti

 

[Alesia_BH]

The Fixpack option isn't available for EE afaik; is there another mod out there that provides stun prevention to FA for EE?

Thanks for sharing- especially your experience with other related components.

The Fixpack component does work on the EE. It’s in the Optional But Cool category. Use Weidu to initiate G3 installation, as per usual. If you’re running EE the installer will automatically skip the core components, since they’ve already been integrated. You’ll be given the option to view the Optional But Cool components. Select yes and proceed from there.

(The mildly amusing thing about all this is that I hadn’t been taking a principled stand back then. I was solely motivated by a desire to protect my bounty hunter from Power Word: Stun, lol.)

 

[Alesia_BH]

@OrlonKronsteen That does look like it took a lot of work, lol, but it should help us come up with a plan. I’m going to flag @Enuhal , @Serg_BlackStrider and @Borco , too. I’m confident we’ll get you through.

Quick question: Do you still have your Drow disguise? There’s something in Carlig’s Drow disguise inventory that could be helpful

 

[OrlonKronsteen]

@Alesia_BH thank you! At this point I’m more interested from a general learning standpoint than in saving my run.

As for Drow disguise, no, I haven’t entered the city yet. I usually clear out all the other quests (including mind flayers and beholders) before going there. And I’ve never heard of Carlig.

The Fixpack component does work on the EE. It’s in the Optional But Cool category. Use Weidu to initiate G3 installation, as per usual. If you’re running EE the installer will automatically skip the core components, since they’ve already been integrated.

This is way cool. Where in the mod install order do you install this?

 

[Alesia_BH]

@Alesia_BH thank you! At this point I’m more interested from a general learning standpoint than in saving my run.

Noted! We can do that, too. I’m kind of busy rn, so my participation will be limited today specifically , but I’ll definitely engage both questions: general and specific

As for Drow disguise, no, I haven’t entered the city yet. I usually clear out all the other quests (including mind flayers and beholders) before going there. And I’ve never heard of Carlig.

Carlig is the merchant in the south of the Underdark. He has different inventories, depending on whether you are wearing your Drow disguise or not. In the Drow disguise inventory there is a Limited Wish scroll. There’s a one time wish, “I wish for control over time.” That grants a Time Stop. You have Belm. You have Mislead. You have Improved Haste. You have Imoen’s backstabbing abilities. That’s an amusing nuclear option when you’re underleveled for an Underdark encounter, lol

 

[Enuhal]

I'm not experienced at theorycrafting fights just from written information alone. That being said, a short look at the SCS demon knights - according to the readme, they should have the following abilities:

Demon Knights (cast at 18th level):

• 20d6 fireball, once per day
• Power words: stun, blind, and kill, once per day each
• Symbols of Death and Stun, once per day each
• Remove Magic, twice per day
• Teleport Without Error, at will

With the level difference, the first step is to protect all subsequent buffs with Spell Immunity: Abjuration, which all three of your arcane spellcasters seem to have access too, so that's good. I'm seeing a little bit of a lack in elemental resistance spells in your spellbook compared to my usual tastes - but with divine level 3 casts you should be able to give everyone protection from fire to cancel out the fireball (and I'm sure you have some fire resistance gear you could swap around as well, or some potions/green scrolls).
Now, Aerie should have access to 2 level 6 slots. If you want to to use chaotic commands and death wards to protect your party, these might be your solution: Wondrous Recall will give you access to a lot more level 5 and 4 spellslots, you just have to make sure you use the spells in the correct order. This would block PW and symbol stun/kill, but not PW blind. For that, I believe there are versions of SCS where true sight counters blindness, there is of course the option of just running Spell Immunity: Conjuration as well (and, of course, depending on the version Spell Immunity for either Conjuration or Enchantment, depending on what school the symbol spells are in your installation, could block that one as well). While it's not mentioned here, they might use symbol: fear as well (it's always worth it having remove fear active). Now, for their strong melee attacks, I'm sure you already know the variety of protective options such as stoneskin + the various illusions and spirit armor or just straight up PFMW. However, they do level drain on attack, but you have the AoP and the iMoD to counter that, and the possibility of using the divine spell.

In terms of how to kill them - they seem to have no death spell according to what I can see (though that might be untrue), which would allow some summons to deal decent damage, though some of the low hp ones can be destroyed by the instant kill effects available to the demon knights (symbol death and pw kill), so magical swords, for example, having low HP, maybe not the best option (but the efreeti summon should be immune to the two death effects they have, and is also immune to fire, so might be an idea as I can see you have the spell on Imoen). The demon knights have strong magic resistance (75% I believe), so damaging them with spells (as long as it's not fire, they should be fully immune to that) would require propably some softening via Lower Resistance - which takes time, and spell immunities don't last forever. I don't have any practical experience doing that.
I would usually just try to take them out with overwhelming physical damage. You can try and get the demon knights to use some of their one-off or two-off abilities on summons and your well-protected party members (though if they're fully immune to everything, the demon knights might hesitate) and bring your fighter-types (which should stay back as first so they don't get dispelled) in once they're at lower risk to deal the damage if the output of your three arcane spellcasters isn't enough (it helps if you can get your saving throws really low with the help of some items and invulnerability potions, as those, or potions of magic shielding, which always do the trick, can be quaffed directly after remove magic hits, though symbol spells are, of course, hard to counter with saving throws), but a well-buffed Aerie (with improved haste and a few of the cleric buffs that turn her into a better fighter) can actually deal a high amount of physical damage, and the demon knights don't have strong defenses of their own, so she might be able to do it with the help of the sorcerer/Imoen. You could also pre skull-trap one of their spawning points, though their magic resistance might make that a fairly weak option (and it might be too cheesy for your tastes). I'm sure when it comes to the method of killing them with a more spellcaster-focused party, others will have better input (I usually have higher levels at this point, often availability to high level summons, traps, and usually a character with both SI:A (or entropy shield) and high physical damage output)

Okay, that's some random ideas from me for one of the battles. I can't guarantee anything, some of this might fall entirely flat in practice.

 

[Alesia_BH]

With the level difference, the first step is to protect all subsequent buffs with Spell Immunity: Abjuration, which all three of your arcane spellcasters seem to have access too, so that's good….

Aerie should have access to 2 level 6 slots. If you want to to use chaotic commands and death wards to protect your party, these might be your solution: Wondrous Recall will give you access to a lot more level 5 and 4 spellslots

I'm sure you already know the variety of protective options such as stoneskin + the various illusions and spirit armor or just straight up PFMW. However, they do level drain on attack, but you have the AoP and the iMoD to counter that, and the possibility of using the divine spell.

In terms of how to kill them -

You can try and get the demon knights to use some of their one-off or two-off abilities on summons and your well-protected party members

well-buffed Aerie (with improved haste and a few of the cleric buffs that turn her into a better fighter) can actually deal a high amount of physical damage, and the demon knights don't have strong defenses of their own, so she might be able to do it with the help of the sorcerer/Imoen.

That’s basically the strategy I’d go with: I’d ToD them with arcane support, and summons taking the lead, in the hope of drawing out spells. As you may have noticed, that’s basically the gameplan Alena’s crew has been using throughout their run.

If I wanted my warriors to participate, I’d snag the Greenstone Amulet and have them keep their auras clear. Given my biases, I’d probably have the warriors use strength stacking range weapons, but that may not be necessary, depending on how threatening they prove to be in melee, and or how the counter window situation plays out. I’d also consider a Teleport Field based approach.

 

[OrlonKronsteen]

@Enuhal and @Alesia_BH I want to thank you both for taking the time to respond with such long and thoughtful comments. There are only so many hours and minutes in a day, and I really appreciate you taking the time.

In a somewhat unrelated comment, I'm now looking at SCS v35. Alesia_BH, you've been alluding to some of the really big changes. I'm kind of blown away at what this does for Enchanters. It's a huge boost, isn't it? I feel like rolling one now. And how much do you think it diminishes the Conjurer? Still ok given that they only lose divination?

Edit: I'd thought that higher-level enemies got a save against the PW spells with SCS, but it looks like I'm mistaken? If that's the case, there's no real boost for Enchanters.

 

[Borco]

Hey friends!

I'm not sure I can add anything helpful on top of what @Enuhal and @Alesia_BH have already mentioned, although I'll specifically comment on the demon knights - it's a tough one, undoubtedly, however I'd try leverage as much as possible the fact that they all have the same abilities. They're like a football team with only forwards on the field. In terms of defense, you'll only need to focus your resources on protecting your party from a limited set of threats (although still quite numerous). For offense, it should be possible to rely on one or two sources of damage corresponding to their immunities and resistances, focusing on the Soul Reaver wielding knight. Indeed, it seems that a single character would be best positioned to lead the way here, it your case most likely Aerie. She's got SI, PfMW and Fireshield: Blue, which can do the heavy lifting while she absorbs the initial dispels. The remainder of the party could hold back, ready to jump in for quick finishing blows before disappearing again. Aerie's See Enemy: Contingency could relieve some pressure on her book (even though she's currently not able to trigger L5s and L6s). On the paper it seems that adding few of those Mordy Swords could be beneficial as well.

As for the exit guarding party, they are arguably much tougher given that the enemies here are more diverse. I would not hesitate on using stealth here - draw the majority of the party away from the bridge, return with Adalon and escape as fast as possible. The way I see it, there's no shame at all in fleeing from the Underdark

B.

 

[Alesia_BH]

As for the exit guarding party, they are arguably much tougher given that the enemies here are more diverse. I would not hesitate on using stealth here - draw the majority of the party away from the bridge, return with Adalon and escape as fast as possible. The way I see it, there's no shame at all in fleeing from the Underdark

Agreed. That’s my go to plan with solo characters: 1) draw out the invisibility detecting demons; 2) return with Adalon; 3) stealth by. At one point SCS had the Drow mage cast Teleport Field. I used to delight in placing my invisible character in the field and letting it sweep me to the door.

 

[Enuhal]

@Enuhal and @Alesia_BH I want to thank you both for taking the time to respond with such long and thoughtful comments. There are only so many hours and minutes in a day, and I really appreciate you taking the time.

In a somewhat unrelated comment, I'm now looking at SCS v35. Alesia_BH, you've been alluding to some of the really big changes. I'm kind of blown away at what this does for Enchanters. It's a huge boost, isn't it? I feel like rolling one now. And how much do you think it diminishes the Conjurer? Still ok given that they only lose divination?

Edit: I'd thought that higher-level enemies got a save against the PW spells with SCS, but it looks like I'm mistaken? If that's the case, there's no real boost for Enchanters.

Enchanters still get the symbol spells with v35, where stun and fear offer a saving throw, so it's certainly a buff for them, though not a huge one as these spells are rarely used. Conjurers don't really suffer from it, I think - the strongest spells of the power words and symbols are propably PW Silence and PW Blindness, and they basically remain unchanged for them (it's more of a slight nerf to invokers and slight buff to diviners I think).

 

[Alesia_BH]

I'm now looking at SCS v35. Alesia_BH, you've been alluding to some of the really big changes. I'm kind of blown away at what this does for Enchanters.

Here’s what the school change does, in my view

1) It weakens the case for the invoker as the best kit.

Prior to the change, the invoker lost only one spell of consequence, Malison. Now they lose Malison, the game’s best high level disablers, and some of the best choices for Spell Trap looping. The invoker kit is still useable but it’s suffered a major downgrade.

2) The diviner is now one of the strongest kits.

Focusing on the spells I use, a diviner would only lose MAA, FA and Glitterdust. Those loses are very easy to work around. By way of comparison to the invoker, none of those spells are as valuable as Malison, PW:B and the PW:K/PW:S Spell Trap looping combo

I like sorcerers unless I’m looking for a flavor pick, but if I were to chose a mage kit based on power, there’s a good chance I’d go with diviner now. I’d need to think about it more.

3) It helps enchanters and hurts conjurers, but I doubt anyone will notice.

The disposition of that -2 on the symbols doesn’t matter a ton, since those spells aren’t especially effective in the player’s hand. As for the AI, the player will need to be ready for -6s on the Symbols in any case, because we usually don’t know the kit of the mage we’re facing

4) It makes SI:E a strong choice in a variety of circumstances. It makes SI:C far weaker.

SI: C has historically been my third most used Spell Immunity behind Abjuration and Divination. Between the insect spell nerf, and the school change, it’s gone from contextually indispensable to marginally useful at best. SI: E, in contrast, is a beast now.

4) It’ll be harder to identify spells based on incantations.

Focusing on the tough saves, and assuming you don’t know your opponent’s kit, an Enchantment incantation now means you need to be ready for a -6 against confusion or a -6 against stun. In the past, Enchantment tipped confusion and Conjuration meant stun. In my solo games I routinely used that to prep counters. Things will be a bit trickier now, for better or worse.

5) It scares the bejesus out of me

There’s a reason why most legal systems operate on a precedent system: it limits capricious change, and it promotes consistency and long term stability. Change can happen, when it must, but an overwhelmingly compelling justification is required to overcome the presumption in favor of precedent. That’s good.

Mods like SCS should operate the same way. There should be a presumption in favor of the original mechanic. Changes should only occur if there’s overwhelmingly compelling evidence that they will significantly advance a core design goal, like redressing a clear error or improving the efficacy of the AI. Changing the school of two majorly important spell types just because you’d like to see more high level enchantment spells is not ok. Not ok at all. Idiosyncratic preference can not justify a change to the original game mechanic.

I fear we’ve moved from the light touch days of early SCS to a time when changes happen simply because a development team with a perfectionist streak is looking for something to do. It’s an easy trap to fall into when engaged in a labor of love. G3 and Spell Revisions have both made the same mistake during periods of their histories. I love, love, love SCS but I sincerely hope they’ll refrain from making changes like this in the future.

Anyhoo, those are my thoughts for what they’re worth.

Cheers!

A.

 

[Talamir]

I concur 100%; I can't play without SCS and have major respect for DavidW's work, but it's default configuration has drifted too far from how the game works and far beyond the scope of providing more intelligent enemies plus optional extra enhanced encounters.

Thankfully all these changes in SCS are optional; I heavily edit the ini file to keep various spells closer to how they function in vanilla. I'd prefer that the changes SCS makes to various spells and systems be optional tweaks on a standard/default install of the mod rather than requiring tweaking the ini file in order to keep vanilla behavior, but at least that option still is available, just requires a bit more work.

 

[Borco]

I appreciate where the changes might be coming from, in particular the idea to make the enchanters feel more relevant at the later stages of the game by allowing them to toss Symbols over Malison, however I'd agree that it's mostly going to affect the way you protect yourself against these spells rather than how you actually use them actively. Insofar as it is an optional component then I'd be fine with it (like it used to be for the sequencers and triggers to be treated as special abilities rather than spells). As a default change I believe it goes too far.