Thoughts on Mystics/Psionics

[Fandraxx]

Hey all,

I've been reading through the Psionics Handbook over the past few days for a video about both the handbook itself and another module about Dark Sun (which made psionics a huge part of the world).

Kinda curious to know what people think about Psionics (eferred to as Mystics in more recent editions). I know they've always been the subject of discourse over the years.

Personally, I don't have anything against the "vibe" of "theming" they they present - in a world with magic and divine intervention, how unbelievable are mind connections and tricks?

Moreso, my issue lies in just how much they actually have access to. They have so many abilities and if two mystics wind up fighting each other they have to play 17 different mini-games to decide whether or not they can actually hit each other. They just feel very odd in the scope of the other game's systems - like they're separate, but meant to be with everything else.

Would love to know what everyone else thinks!

 

[OrlonKronsteen]

I first experienced psionics back in 1st edition p&p, and I vaguely remember percentile dice being used to manage the mechanics. It was too long ago to remember if it was a good system, and add to that we probably weren’t sophisticated enough to evaluate that sort of thing. But it does resonate with your observation, namely that they created a different system instead of just using a d20 like all other combat. I remember that feeling a little odd.

My next encounter with psionics was in BG2, but of course those mechanics are managed by the computer and hidden from the player. I can’t recall any moment of thinking ‘that was broken,’ but more astute players may have something to say about that.

But the idea of ‘mini games’ in whatever version you’re playing seems a little weird. I’m not sure why psionic abilities wouldn’t operate similar to spells, with regular saving throws and checks. But what do I know.

As for whether they belong thematically, like you I don’t see how they’re any stranger than any of the other strange phenomenon in d&d. I guess it just depends on whether it’s subjectively appealing to you. And, as with everything else, a good dm would have to keep a close eye on the cheese-ometer.

 

[Fandraxx]

I first experienced psionics back in 1st edition p&p, and I vaguely remember percentile dice being used to manage the mechanics. It was too long ago to remember if it was a good system, and add to that we probably weren’t sophisticated enough to evaluate that sort of thing. But it does resonate with your observation, namely that they created a different system instead of just using a d20 like all other combat. I remember that feeling a little odd.

But the idea of ‘mini games’ in whatever version you’re playing seems a little weird. I’m not sure why psionic abilities wouldn’t operate similar to spells, with regular saving throws and checks. But what do I know.

Having just finished reading the handbook, I'm still not sure I'm adjusted to the fact that it reverses the use of the d20 - as in a 20 is a critical failure.

And what I mean by "mini-games" is that because of what psionics have available to them, they have an entire litany of defenses and different attacks they can use; when two psionics fight each other, they basically have to make a series of "face-off" rolls (to go along with expected saving throws and whatnot) in order to determine outcome of their clash. It's very... weird.

What I will say is that the handbook is far better served by making mystics their own class. In 1e anyone could be a psionic. It was incredibly rare, but also up to chance. You could be a sword-and-board fighter who could, for whatever reason, make use of an entire array of telepathic abilities if you were lucky enough when you created a new character. It was pretty broken, as you can probably expect.

 

[OrlonKronsteen]

I'd forgotten that there was a random chance for psionics at character creation in 1st ed. Thanks for that reminder! I can't remember anyone in our campaign having psionics, but I remember reading about it - and we were probably all hoping for psi talents when it was time to roll new tunes. It's not as though our characters weren't already cheesy enough, though. We were in junior high, so you can imagine.

I think having it as it's own class makes sense. The reverse d20 is funny, though. It seems there is always something a little weird in d&d. Let us know if you actually try playing one, or observe the class in a real campaign.

 

[Skatan]

I have no experience of Psionics nor PnP but wrt to the "mini games" I just wonder how different it can be from the "mage chess" of classic DnD? Doesn't it make sense that if two psionics/mystics face off, the power of their will would take a sort of 'chess' to keep your own defenses up while stripping your enemy's? But perhaps the mini game you refer to is quite different and, as said, I really know nothing of it and just speculate a bit

But generally I would love more uniqueness in the feel of classes. From the very little I know, and what you say, it sounds they have that. I find the overlap of classes in DnD and PF to be a bit bland sometimes, taking away the concept of classes and just making them more into canisters for certain skill packs. Spells for example have way too much overlap so the idea of psionics as something completely different from the regular style of spells is very cool.

 

[Cahir]

I'd imagine implementing psionics (as kind of mind chess mini-game) would be very difficult in a crpg game, because it's not particularly visually appealing. I always found the psionic schools that manipulate the matter (maybe except telekinesis) a bit too overlapping with regular magic.

 

[Fandraxx]

But generally I would love more uniqueness in the feel of classes. From the very little I know, and what you say, it sounds they have that. I find the overlap of classes in DnD and PF to be a bit bland sometimes, taking away the concept of classes and just making them more into canisters for certain skill packs. Spells for example have way too much overlap so the idea of psionics as something completely different from the regular style of spells is very cool.

See, I would generally agree with you, but the "uniqueness" of the psionics in this case more often-than-not makes them feel too different. It's like they interpret and understand the rules of the game completely differently from every other class. I can appreciate what they were trying to do, but wish they could've done so in a way that didn't bend so many different parts of the rules.

 

[Black Elk]

Dark Sun!!! It had such glorious art direction and all the most badass covers!



Plus all that fantastic Brom! Like Bag of Bones era

I can't remember if it was for a game or a book or what, but probably this dude rolled some random Psionics at char creation. Just taking heads like that hehe



BG3 leans pretty hard into the Psionics angle for those exact sorts of mini games mentioned above, if you elect to use the Illithid powers. Not as dialed as in the manuals, but it definitely goes there. I think it's kinda hit or miss, like fun for a first out, but also sorta busts other things. I had fun with it though

 

[Fandraxx]

Dark Sun!!! It had such glorious art direction and all the most badass covers!



Plus all that fantastic Brom! Like Bag of Bones era

I can't remember if it was for a game or a book or what, but probably this dude rolled some random Psionics at char creation. Just taking heads like that hehe



BG3 leans pretty hard into the Psionics angle for those exact sorts of mini games mentioned above, if you elect to use the Illithid powers. Not as dialed as in the manuals, but it definitely goes there. I think it's kinda hit or miss, like fun for a first out, but also sorta busts other things. I had fun with it though

Dark Sun is actually why I read through the handbook in the first place! I've got an old Dragon Kings module and figured I'd give myself a refresher beforehand.

Always really liked what Dark Sun did with the class. The way it's weaved into the world makes it all fit in a bit better. Dark Sun was criminally underused as a whole.

 

[mlnevese]

I really love Dark Sun but it doesn't work well with anything but Second Edition Rules. The difference between defiler and preserver and how that led to the desert world just do not work well with other rule sets.

 

[WarChiefZeke]

I really love Dark Sun but it doesn't work well with anything but Second Edition Rules. The difference between defiler and preserver and how that led to the desert world just do not work well with other rule sets.

I love Dark Sun to death, it will always be my favorite setting, but yes, the entire world is tied to classic 2nd edition rules in a way that it can't be separated from. The entire transformation system that epic characters go through only makes sense in the contest of 2nd edition Dual Classing. And who wants Dark Sun without humans who can become Elementals, Avangions, or Dragons?

I am a big fan of psionics, but it is easily one the most obscure mechanics in all of ADND. Sometimes it's best to use as a villains power so you don't have to fully explain it.