Updated my journal - Planescape Torment : Enhanced Edition (Android version)

JustKneller

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Discovery if I either have the patience for multiple playthroughs or follow a step by step walkthrough... which kinda contradicts discovery too
This is something else I felt made Planescape different. if I'm playing BG and there's a paladin in the party, we're getting Carsomyr. There's no question. Whoever is along for the ride, I'll be making a point of getting them tooled up as much as possible for the best results. But, there are no "best results" in Planescape. However it plays out is how it's meant to play out. There's no character optimization. There's no "best choice". The narrative that emerges from your choices is what was meant to be. You can't approach it as a typical gamer playing a game.

I've never seen a video game capture the feel of how I think tabletop gaming should be better than Planescape did.
 

JustKneller

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I should mention, I've only actually played the game once. My only meta-knowledge going into it was that I should make a talker character and focus on Wis/Int/Cha in that order. I'm sure I missed some things, but I'm sure I opened up more than the average amount of story points. This was partly due to my build but largely due to not approaching this game like BG, IWD or really any other cRPG. When I finished the game, it felt....complete. Like, I didn't need to replay it a million times like IWD or something. I had a full experience and got far more than my money's worth compared to most other games I've played.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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Looks like the secret of the Silent King will remaing a secret, @JustKneller ;)

Nah, I decided I don't owe the undead anything and I kinda like rats so I figured Hargrimm had the key (and I suspected already why he wouldn't let me see the king), so I killed him, raced past the aggro undead to the throne room, then to Many-As-One, told him, he gave me a memory, then back to Pharod and picked up Annah.
Going to continue another day.
 

m7600

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809
I'm sure I missed some things,
I've played it many times, and I still missed some things. For example

I never lied in the dialogue options, which is why I never chose the option to say that my name is Adahn. During one playthrough, I said "fuck it, let's just see what happens if I lie all the time". It was a great shock when, after doing that, I actually met Adahn. At first I was extremely confused, but then I learned that beliefs have actual, tangible powers in this setting. If you believe something, ardently, then it will become reality. Which is why the afterlife Planes exist in the first place. Mount Celestia, aka "Heaven", exists because there are people who believe that it does. You don't go to Heaven for being Lawful Good, it's the other way around: if you're Lawful Good, then Heaven will begin to exist thanks to your beliefs and your actions. The same goes for the other planes. When people stop believing in the gods, those gods die. Which is why they want worshipers. Etc. Etc. Etc.
 

m7600

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Nah, I decided I don't owe the undead anything and I kinda like rats so I figured Hargrimm had the key (and I suspected already why he wouldn't let me see the king), so I killed him, raced past the aggro undead to the throne room, then to Many-As-One, told him, he gave me a memory, then back to Pharod and picked up Annah.
Going to continue another day.
How did you kill him if he was just a lifeless puppet? : )
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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608
How did you kill him if he was just a lifeless puppet? : )

Read again :)


I figured Hargrimm had the key (and I suspected already why he wouldn't let me see the king), so I killed him, raced past the aggro undead to the throne room

I didn't say I killed the Silent King. I said I killed Hargrimm because I assumed he had the key for the throne room, and had already suspected why he didn't want me to go there.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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And I didn't say that you killed the Silent King.

How did you kill Hargrimm if he was just a lifeless puppet? : )

Ugh, go and split hairs with someone else! :)

Reminds me of my daughter, she was 9 and I was playing BG1, she asked me what I'm doing, I said I'm killing skeletons (Undercity) and she said "That doesn't make sense. Skeletons are already dead."
 

m7600

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I always thought skeletons should be a much tougher opponent in RPGs. No vital organs, animated by pure magic, etc.
As you already know, they usually have resistance to piercing damage, as it would probably be difficult to land an arrow on a bone, or to stab them.

But other than that, yeah, they tend to be low level trash mobs.
 

Zaxares

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But not every person goes to Sigil after dying. Very few of them go there, actually. Every afterlife depends on your alignment. Lawful Good characters go to Mount Celestia (aka, "Heaven"), Lawful Evil characters go to Baator (aka, "Hell"), Chaotic Good characters go to Arborea, Chaotic Evil characters go to The Abyss, etc. Sigil is the place where True Neutral characters go after they die.
Excellent post! Although one major correction; True Neutrals do not go to Sigil when they die. They go to the Outlands, the actual True Neutral Plane. Sigil is like a self-contained enclave in the Outlands, ruled over by the Lady of Pain, but it is not the Plane itself. (For one thing, each Outer Plane is infinite, but Sigil itself is not infinite in size.) To use another example, it's like how Tiamat maintains a divine realm/personal fortress on Avernus, the first plane of Baator, but that realm, despite being where the souls of all Chromatic Dragons and Tiamat worshippers go after death, is not the plane of Baator itself, although it does reside there.

But yes, I'm envious of you, Wrex. PS:T probably still remains my all-time favourite CRPG (BG3 could potentially have dethroned it, but the story felt a bit too short and there didn't really seem to be enough closure for some of the companions.) You're in for one hell of an unforgettable story. :)
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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But yes, I'm envious of you, Wrex. PS:T probably still remains my all-time favourite CRPG (BG3 could potentially have dethroned it, but the story felt a bit too short and there didn't really seem to be enough closure for some of the companions.) You're in for one hell of an unforgettable story.

Heh, everyone keeps saying that. Right now I'm having a hard time not getting bored because of trash mobs and outdated AI making the gameplay less interesting. I hope I can keep up my interest for the story experience.
 

m7600

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809
Alright, time to really nerd up this discussion: theories of the Lady of Pain. What is she, exactly? I'm guessing she's and Overgod, comparable to Lord Ao. This would make Sigil something completely apart from the Forgotten Realms, as Lord Ao would not have any influence over Sigil. Instead of being a pocket plane, Sigil would be like some sort of "pocket Multiverse".
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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Alright, time to really nerd up this discussion: theories of the Lady of Pain. What is she, exactly? I'm guessing she's and Overgod, comparable to Lord Ao. This would make Sigil something completely apart from the Forgotten Realms, as Lord Ao would not have any influence over Sigil. Instead of being a pocket plane, Sigil would be like some sort of "pocket Multiverse".

Can't contribute to that discussion as I haven't made her acquaintance (yet?) and I'm not sure that would be a healthy experience.

As the situation with my game is, I have played midwife for a pregnant street and discovered the Lower Ward, and slowly things are getting more interesting.

Someone stole Morte and put him on a shelf, that was a bit funny tbh.

Screenshot_20240629_200647_Planescape Torment Enhanced Edition.jpg


The guy who appeared, Lothar, gave Morte back in return for the Silent King's skull and had some insights to share about what happened to me. I'm going to follow those leads, but not today.
Story is getting more absurd and therefore more funny and interesting too. I also got the chance to save some guys who were about to run into a pointless fight being set up by an arrogant noble lady, and we gave a merciful death to an old sick lady who asked it of Dak'kon.
 

JustKneller

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Alright, time to really nerd up this discussion: theories of the Lady of Pain. What is she, exactly? I'm guessing she's and Overgod, comparable to Lord Ao. This would make Sigil something completely apart from the Forgotten Realms, as Lord Ao would not have any influence over Sigil. Instead of being a pocket plane, Sigil would be like some sort of "pocket Multiverse".

What came first? Sigil or the Lady?

I think your comparison to Ao could be in the right neighborhood. This makes me think of something that has come up from time to time in Alan Watts' lectures. Here's an example. However, this is incomplete. This often gets coupled with the idea of metaphysical relativity. The eye cannot see itself, a tooth cannot bite itself, a mind cannot think itself. Putting it together, we are beings who exist interdependently and our existence is an activity, not a stable state of being.

On top of that, Sigil is a rather metaphysically sensitive place. Isn't there a part of the narrative where gods only exist if people believe in them? Perhaps Sigil itself only exists if a force believes in it. It's not really part of any of the other planes, but more in it's own space in between the planes (hence the idea that it may be the center of everything). Perhaps that is what the Lady is. She is a metaphysical force that exists to believe in Sigil. She is not a goddess herself, as then she would need worshipers to exist. If anything, Sigil is the god-being and the Lady is the faith-source that supports its existence. It would definitely explain how she can shape the city by thought alone. The Lady is Sigil's only faith-source (or at least has a majority share of it, since its residents can potentially make small changes to things), so Sigil becomes an extension of whatever she believes.

This could be why she doesn't accept followers, and to worship her has disastrous results. Were she to take the role of a deity, she would then need to conform to the rules of existence for gods. However, this would break (or at least be very damaging) to the Sigil-Lady synergy.

So, as Sigil is not a place that is a part of other places and doesn't play by the rules of other places, The Lady is a being that is not connected to other beings and doesn't play by the rules of any other beings.

My question is, why the Lady of Pain. Pain seems to just be an incidental consequence of foolishly trying to worship her. If the core of her existence is this metathought cycle between her and Sigil, wouldn't that be the foundation of her name? The Lady of Dreams? The Thoughtweaver? Something like that?
 
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