Storytelling in RPGs - what makes a "good" story.

[Cahir]

Maybe this will seem controversial to some, but I realized that games with fixed, pre-generated characters are the ones that I feel more immersed in and which story I find more attached to. Games like Mass Effect (with cmdr Shepard), CP2077 (with V), Planescape Torment (the Nameless One), Disco Elysium (Harry du Bois), Red Dead Redemption 2 (Arthur Morgan) or Ghost of Tsushima (Jin Sakai) are among the games with the best stories I have ever played. I think this may be in large part due to the fact that we play established character and devs can write more personal story, better fitting for the character *they* imagined, not a character *you*, as a player, imagined.

There are of course few exceptions from this, as usual, like BG series or Dragon Age: Origins, where you create your own character, with chosen race and class. But still, I think there is a reason why the fact you create your own character did not impact negatively on the story in those two titles. In BG whichever race or class you choose, you play as a Bhaalspawn, someone with fixed past. You play as Gorion's foster son, so you have already an established story. Choosing race and kit doesn't change it, it's all just for fluff. In Dragon Age Origins, it's because of what @Antimatter already pointed out - the origin stories. The fact that Bioware wrote several of those paths makes this story more personal.

 

[Nimran]

I always lol at the dying man giving a complete stranger a history lesson with his last breath. Here lies Johnny, his last words were “In ancient times, this great enemy was defeated, and blahblahblah.” That much exposition doesn’t fit on a tombstone, buddy.

Inexperience leads to mistakes like this. The best way to fix it is to listen to feedback from more experienced writers (not random people on the internet, they could also be wrong). More experienced writers know firsthand what their audience wants (i.e. what they’re willing to pay for, because at the end of the day it’s all about the money you can make from your writing, that’s why people go pro in the first place).

 

[Antimatter]

Thought this piece by Eurogamer's Reviews Editor Chris Tapsell would be fitting for this thread-- personally, I've already decided to play Pentiment thanks to the review by @Urdnot_Wrex, but maybe others in this thread will give it a try as well (out 15th November on PC, Xbox One, Xbox Series X/S).

"Good writing" is a phrase that gets used quite often, and it can mean a lot of different things. Is good writing a good story? An unguessable twist? Fancy prose or deliberate themes? I'm sure I've used it at some point when what I meant to say is really: "lots of long words I don't completely understand."

Still, Pentiment has good writing - wonderful writing, actually - and in this case, I do know what it means. This game's writing is witty, it has tempo and timing, it is genuinely, wickedly funny. It is also, above all, natural - something that so often seems impossible in games, things where you're so often controlling a character impulsively, pulling their puppet strings on a whim."

The simmering wickedness of Pentiment's dialogue is a delight

"Good writing" is a phrase that gets used quite often, and it can mean a lot of different things. Is good writing a goo…

www.eurogamer.net

 

[Black Elk]

This is an interesting question for me to mull over, especially since my taste when it comes to general reading material is pretty different than what I'm looking for out of a cRPG. I read constantly, so big walls of text don't intimidate me, but I'm just not a big fiction reader if I'm honest. I can read mythology or philosophy or a history that's dry as all hell, and it doesn't really need to justify itself, because the material is already implicitly relevant (it happened, which makes it inherently interesting) and I'll happily flip the pages on that stuff, but when it comes to poetry or novels or writing of that sort I'm just impossibly harsh in the judgement. Someone really needs to sell me on it so I can get it up for the experience, otherwise I tend to tune out at the first sign of weakness. Sure there are exceptions, like Tolkien or Howard I guess, but even there, the more I spend time with their backcatalogs or seeking out the real-world inspirations behind their fantasy constructions, the less enamored I find myself. I remember people telling me I should check out A Song of Ice and Fire, which I did, and read them all, but the whole time I totally felt like I was combing over a teleplay. Which I guess makes sense, since dude got his start writing for Beauty and the Beast with Linda Hamilton right? hehe. Anyhow, it didn't surprise me to find that I enjoyed the show more than the actual books. Heresy, doubtless lol. But when the actors are there to inhabit their roles, it becomes less about random new character X with a curious spelling to their name, and more about the person playing them for me. And so if that's like the high water mark in terms of fantasy 'story' than what are the odds I'm getting psyched for the more middling video game version of that? I mean I can barely get it up for Salvatore, who I appreciate more for the illustrations on the covers than the words on the page, so it's just a very tall order hehe.

Then again, that's not really what I need from a D&D/RPG game for it to nevertheless still work for me. Especially since my impression of Dungeon & Dragons has always been something of a B rate knock-off emulator, sort of invented to play the Lord of the Rings, but without needing the rights lol. The Forgotten Realms is replete with knock-off Lore, and I enjoy the kitchen sink aspect there, sure, but it's all rather silly at bedrock. So I don't really need it to be much more than a good cliché. I think where it runs into problems is when it tries so hard not to be cliché, a nice pastiche of clichés, and begins taking itself way too seriously - at which point I start head scratching.

And of course no amount of great story or perfect pacing will compensate for lackluster gameplay, so that could be another key factor for me. Like recognizing that the medium is just better at some things than others, and not setting the bar too crazy high for a narrative payoff. I agree with others that Planescape: Torment was pretty impressive, but even there the stuff that stuck with me was more the mood or general vibe or visual/soundscape ambiance, than the story per se. I played PoE too, but alas the setting just never hooked me. My critiques there would be no more insightful than my critiques of FR in general, except that it lacked the appeal and familiar continuity of a more firmly established setting. Being an original IP probably killed it in the cradle for me, since I just couldn't bring myself to care enough about Eora.

I think an RPG game with a middling or a derivative or a 'leans-heavily-on-allusions' type story, can still be pretty successful though, provided the gameplay is fun and especially if it offers a high degree of PC customization within it's admittedly well-trodden milieu. With that last I think the important thing is basically striking a balance between variety and aesthetic immersion. Not to make less work for the writers of the universe, but I really think they should hire a gang of modelers instead and go full bore into developing Char creation before it ever even gets there. Cause honestly, I can make a great story for myself about having a different face or a different get up and "wearing a black robe instead this time!" lol, which pound for pound probably delivers more replay value, than a cliffhanging in Chapter 4 ever would, but often times you don't even get that. It's the curmudgeon in me speaking now I can tell, but I'm still a little disappointed that the promise of 3d that Obsidian made way back when, when they assured us that the 3d model would supplant the 2d portrait in every way, that it still hasn't happened. I think for D&D cRPG what they should really do is pour a gang of loot into Face/Body models and then creating some sort of FIDM thing (Fashion Institute of Dungeon Mastery? lol) where the unarmored standard clothing appearance in Char creation is just absolutely nuts and decked out the nines. Instead of hiring VA actors to perform specific characters, just create some kind of massive library of PC/NPC everything barks, and get the theater peeps to wear the motion capture stuff to do all the Bruce Campbell expressions imaginable. Then get the writers to go to town! hehe. Like honestly, how is this medium ever to supplant the cinema as our highest and most revered art form, until we get the full range visuals going for the actors at least

I guess I am still just pining for the NWN3 choose my own adventure series that I never got. You know the one where we could make ISO style BG-esque campaigns for the single player to sustain it while the massively multi player live dm ghost writing aspect catches up. Still my big wish! NWN kinda failed for me on both the story and the gameplay front, but it had the germ of an excellent idea, before kinda forgetting what made the infinity gameplay with the full party so fun. Made something too Everquest-y in my view there, never actually delivered. I think the idea of active story making over passive story receiving has a lot promise, but it's still so far off. I played BG3 yesterday, and just the idea of directing my own little D&D mini-series there, but then can't even control the camera, and wardrobe called in sick again? lol. I wish it was all much further along haha. I think what I'm looking for with D&DRPG is more like a good type-writer that really hums, more toolset than the finished manuscript on the story aspect I guess. Sorry that may have been a dodge, talking around what makes a good or bad story rather than answering the questions, which is very tough. But it was fun to read the impressions, especially for PoE, since I had a similar sort of take on the experience. Memorial day rambles I guess! But good question!

Best Elk

ps. random aside, but just since the AIs are in the news. I was thinking yesterday about something I heard, can't remember where exactly, but essentially about how soon AIs may attempt to replace a lot of work done formerly in visual arts/concept arts with work done in 'writing.' Or kinda writing/scavenging/prompt experimentation I guess. But then, if it's that far along, it's pretty easy to imagine the writers themselves getting AI'd out the game eventually too. I'm sure it'll all come on fast, like it tends to do, but just that idea had me tripping out on the possibility of a D&DAI. Like where maybe it starts with a character portrait, but eventually gets to the place where the DMAI is just writing bespoke stuff for you on the fly. You know, based on your interests and previous plays, combined with your initial inputs. Basically Total Recall style heheh. Like I don't know, but some of the story beats in even the best RPG games are still probably formulaic enough that I bet it could work. Like where part of character creation is guiding the story you'd like to hear told. Or sort of just re-imagining the classic bed-time story approach, where the listener is leading a bit in that way. It makes me wonder if they are doing any real research or putting loot into that sort of stuff. The Wizards I mean

 

[Antimatter]

It's only when you hear or read from someone skilled in language that you realise language is a skill. A very insightful, and beautifully written, post, @Black Elk! It reminded me of my recent experience with Skyrim, during which I got to know the deep level of modding that is available for that game, and all the creativity the modders have and use. Essentially, with hundreds of mods installed, you can make Skyrim be--almost--that kind of a campaign you've described, where the actual writing of the story doesn't matter, but You, the player, can make a story about having a different background, face, get up, companions, etc, etc. I think in part, that contributes to the fact Skyrim continues to be popular 11 years since its release. And yes, there are mods to provide you with the Fashion Institute of Dungeon Mastery.

 

[Black Elk]

It's funny you mentioned, cause I just cracked it open again the other day to finally get the paraglider mod working lol. It took me maybe an hour of fidgeting around on nexus to get the installation order dialed, but it was very satisfying once all was said and done. Skyrim is about as close as I've seen to a hybrid action/exploration game with the D&D style flavor that really carried for me. I think they came very close to nailing it on the overall experience and also for just capturing a sort of popular appeal that often seems to elude D&D, or at least it's computer versions for whatever reason. I think probably Mass Effect and Red Dead Redemption 2 did the same for the space or western vibes, real standout entries. Witcher 3 I guess is the tops for a grim fantasy, more self contained. But I'd wish for something like Skyrim set in the Realms, with a full party dynamic and a bit more attention paid to physics like climbing, jumping, using ropes and the like. Doing that stuff to the Nth degree for the Non Com style exploration stuff or rt mode the for low stakes stuff, but then TB for the set piece tactical battles. Looking for something beyond just a flourish and a jump, to bridge the gaps, so that the exploration pacing or trash encounters doesn't make the thing drag. That stuff is very solid at the foundations for me (like when you can make just cruising around and scouting really fun, even at lvl1 abilities) that'll make me engage with everything else about the game in a different way. Basically leaning more into the concept of just ripping off what Nintendo did for Breath of the Wild I guess hehe, but for a party, and D&D.

Anyhow, yeah, when you can make just walking around and looking at stuff so engaging, that's a definite triumph. Though I agree some of the base art for the figure assets left a lot to be desired. I think they went off the face morph principle of 'start them with hella ugly' and let them try to find something passing fair like a needle in the haystack, when I'd have rather they just hired enough modelers to make like 200 really great heads preset. 100 beautiful faces, 50 grizzly ones, and 50 themed more towards NPC archetypes (you know the portly inn keep, hag witches, old as dirt wizards etc). Then tweak off those for the cosmetic elements. Do the same for all the basic starting outfits. Dress up GI Joe/barbie basically, but FR style. I'd love to see something like that, built-in from the getgo, rather than coming a decade on hehe.

Skyrim for me is a little weird, cause on the one hand I really want to play first person like old school Might and Magic III or something, and I dig the way it presents there for the most part, but also find that cam too frenetic in combat. Like it'll make me dizzy after a while, similar to reading in a car or being on a boat, like as if I'd have to take dramamine to really commit there. So instead I play with the 3rd person cam locked out at like 200-300 on the minimum zoom which seems to replicate other games. I tried a couple different tactics mods to see if I could find a dodge/jump scheme that I enjoyed, but I think some may have conflicted with the paraglider, or maybe the cam load out, cause I had to go with one that defaulted to a thumbstick doge which felt a little awkward. Maybe there's a better pad mapper for it, since I use a controller for that game, but haven't found it yet. Some of the layouts in Skyrim for outfit customization were also pretty great, I think they did it a bit better than many MMOs even, where that stuff gets a lot more attention. I haven't tango'd much with ESO though. Shmity72 did his best to get me all plugged in there and I think it's still on the hard drive, but I failed to delve much beyond the surface, cause RPG style sword and sorcery is more of an SP thing for me. Still it certainly looked and sounded cool, least as I recall. I'd like to see a D&D game catch a billion dollar budget like Red Dead R2 got, cause you can just see how it really does pay off to bet big like that. Kinda veering off what makes for a good story, but that's still what I'm keeping my eye out for. Cause if they can land that hook, I'll stick around for the rest of the story, but when it falters there I probably bow out early before it even really gets started haha.

 

[shmity72]

Well written Black Elk.

As I am a poet and not a comprehensive' writer I will keep this relatively brief.
I too read non fiction for pleasure more than fiction. Best book I've read in a couple years was the autobiography of joe buck the sportscaster:
'Lucky Bastard'

I think creative writing may be honed. For my upcoming movie set in the realm of Elder Scrolls Online, I initially found a writer with a degree in literature from Belgium. Amazing writer raised on romance novels for my wedding movie.
I was doubly lucky in the writing department.
Low and behold my wife is a completely outstanding writer as well. She too has read over 1k romance novels and attended workshops with Anne Rice, and took over the creative writing process in January 9 Months later whence I had officially hard stopped filming out of respect for my volunteer actors.

Black Elk I share your disenchantment with the majority of fiction less it's done say like Broadway or cinema style.
Where one is 'in' the experience. That's why my wife and I and millions of others have and do play MMO as well as games as Skyrim a lot.
Immersion/Character development over story trappings/hooks. For me anyway.
Again that being said, without a riveting story, often times you end up with 'oh my gosh 'sploisions!' as you see in most current movies where tik tok culture seems to admire titillations over inspiration.

Have a good one.

~Jason aka shmity72

 

[m7600]

I don't remember if someone said this before in this thread, but I think that we can (should?) consider world-building as well, as something distinct from the story and the dialogues. An example from outside video games that I find highly intriguing is the Codex Seraphinianus. This book is literally unreadable, it's written in some fictional alien language. So it's impossible to judge the quality of the writing here. And it also lacks a story, since it's more like an encyclopedia. But there's some very intriguing world-building going on there, which makes me think that this is indeed a separate element in works of fiction. One of the reasons why I'm fascinated with Tolkien's work is because of his world-building skills, in addition to his skills as a writer. In other cases, I can settle for really bad writing (or even non-existent writing, or writing that is impossible to comprehend, as in the Codex Seraphinianus) if the world-building happens to be amazing.

Here's a nice video about the book that I mentioned:

 

[Black Elk]

Oh hey man! Good to catch ya! haha
Too true! Too true!

Oh that video was pretty rad too! I love the idea of mystery codices and encyclopedias and atlases. Good points all. Also the notes on world building or the distinction between a good story pitch, vs the actual written thing. Or how dialogue has to be the hardest, no contest hehe.

I was thinking again just now about the Blade Runner mentioned at the head of the page. I'm kinda the same there, although I do love the flick for other reasons. Alien had a way bigger impact on my young mind if I'm honest. Whether it's higher art or not, who can say, but give me a xenomorph any day of the week lol. I really can't believe HBO cancelled Raised by Wolves, such a shame. It had one of the better story concepts I've encountered in a while, and I liked that it was legit written to be exactly what it was, rather than a book or graphic novel adaptation like everything else these days. And they had fucking Ragnar too?! Like who was asleep at the wheel when it came time to renew!? Alas. Anyhow, since the thread was about story...

Here's a story idea that would make for a cool film adaptation in my view: Virgil's Aeneid, but set in the early 1930s American West, leading up to like WW2 era Americana. Basically with Model T's instead of the black ships, and a dust bowl instead of a wine dark sea. I imagine Dido self immolating on top of a Studabaker with suicide doors, calling down the hexes like that heheh. Or like scrambling for the dugouts during electrical storms in Ok, with the millipedes closing in, and the dirt of the earth literally lifting into the air - to play up the whole dire calamity aspect. I picture the story concluding in a bucolic golden age California, of course. On the seven hills, after forging an alliance with the Latins, in zoot suits maybe, or Camilla as a flapper hehe. Carnivale vibes? Basically taking the same magical realism present in the original epic, but morphed for a more 20th century silver-screen sensibility, and also playing off that idea of America as a kind of doomed Nova Roma, which I think it fancies itself. I suppose a bit like what the Coen's did in O Brother, but more tragedy rather than comedy. With a dark nekyia and shades at the midpoint, that sort of angle. I think that one's got some legs.

Another similar idea, perhaps better suited to a game: to take Grave's premise in The White Goddess or the Greek Myths (basically a Pelasgian snake-goddess civilization gets over-run by horse-riding Skygod-worshiping warrior cultists) and just run with that. Maybe the MC is at some oracular temple to kick it off, and the high priestess entrusts them with the Crane Bag? Tells them to "Run!" before getting cut down by some sorta Thulsa Doom style centaur villain. Essentially taking the half-man half-horse or amazon concept, but done more realism (actual horse riders) and so that way you can get the equine element going with horse-thief gameplay to boot too. I'd do it all vaguely pre-history with the exact mythography understated for the broadest possible appeal. For the lore, maybe built out like the protagonist is carrying the secret of Writing itself or a proto-alphabet, like the ultimate technology and font of the supreme mysticism. Something with the Loom flare there too, like maybe textiles are worth more than gold? Or really nailing it, they could do like an Ogham scrawl Linear B labyrinth mini game throughout. Like deciphering the thu'ums, but taking it even further lol. Maybe touching on early animal domestication as well, raised by wolves and the like. Get a Lyre going too, with pythagorean spheres of harmony to top the Ocarina there hehe. For a D&D analogy, something more Minoan Ranger or Druid-y RPG at it's heart rather than Clash of the Titans God of War say, but which could still use all the classical tropes pretty freely at the same time. I think that's a winner.

Or finally an idea that's pretty much all game for me: Alpha. Which is essentially an RPG about dogs, starting maybe 10,000 years ago and continuing up into the Space Age hehe. Sorta of a combo between Civ and an FPS action style run and 'gun' I guess? but where the player plays as a dog. Or more accurately as successive generations of puppies. Across pretty much the entire span of recorded history. You can imagine each level begins with a 'choose your pup' screen, where one can select the right runt. I have many ideas about the 'character creator' on that one, as an ongoing thing, and also how the controls should work with a "nose knows" scent meter and various skills and abilities that one must hone over time or through making the right Lady and the Tramp style matches. Golden Eye missions to save humanity, set in many eras, with the human helpers too, but where the standard animal companion dynamic is inverted there - the dogs taking center stage. In such a game there would be no perma death for the doggos, and instead everything would build to an excellent and endearing rainbow bridge epilogue. I'm a born cynic, Diogenes style lol, but I still think that's a billion dollar game right there! Man's best friend and all. But then, how does one write such a thing?

ps. here, I don't want to give away the ending on that last, but let me just give away the ending right quick lol. So basically in the pseudo-final mission of the first game the MC will play as the Cosmonaut Laika - first in space!

Get vibes of a Soviet Era rocket program that's still kinda shady, and where the humans (like all the humans throughout the entire game) speak in a sort of Charlie-Brown gibberish, such that only the other dogs can communicate in natural language that the MC fully comprehends (ex. presented as English in dialog). I picture the final tragic climax to go full 2001 space Odyssey, with the dog in space, but then at the last moment the color fields morph to reveal the true rainbow bridge. Then the game moves to Elysium where all dogs go to heaven. Classic hehe. But maybe something's afoot there too?! And so the dogs team up to save the Cosmos all over again, as time travelers. Maybe they need help? Alpha: Canine leading naturally to the expansion/sequel Alpha: Feline, right? hehe. That one would be a little trickier, cats being cats, (more verticality I guess? haha Or maybe Forrest Gump/Mission Impossible style, where the MC is inserted into watershed moments more light-hearted, like Cleopatra's cat saves history somehow?) but I think it could work in much the same way, if one wanted their game to conquer the whole broad swath of humanity/internet at a go. For a start though, I'd go equally epic. Great Rift Valley to Beringia prologue with the dogs. Like as much as the story of the every-dog, make it the story of the first-ever dogs. First to join into an alliance with the humans and get the ball rolling. Have it begin with some crazy desperate hunt into pre-history, with neanderthals and mammoths and such still about if going way way back. Big saber tooth cats on the prowl (sequel foreshadowing? hehe) but yeah, like that. Just going full bore and doing it all where possible. Thematically I'd lean more symbiosis or alliance or coevolution, rather than dominance/predation/domestication per se, but where one could still tap the best of the best by sorta flipping it. I think in order to work mechanically and for familiarity and depth, it'd be best with a Dog/Human pairing on each mission, but where the Human is more the henchman and the dog is the star, if that makes sense? The dog/human combo there is basically the theme, and allows for the gameplay to branch more familiar when it needs to, but keeping the emphasis and the through lines more focused on the hounds. From the Ancients to World War 2 and up into the present, but with the cam set low and the nose and the toes. Like Benji or Call of the Wild or the new Predator flick, but just at it's most essential - back to basics. Dog days! hehehe Any takers?

 

[shmity72]

I would need a prefabricated back drop to make a creative storyboard.
A piece of granite that looks like a face I can metaphorically chisel out with adobe lol
Keep the ideas flowing black elk. I like the dog/human idea for a video game.
If I decide to do a follow up to my current project it will A be dark...like 1984 dark. and B probably have pirates!

 

[shmity72]

M7600:
Excerpt from Video communication: Chapter 1. Theoretical Perspectives.

the author tells of a beautiful project he and his team created:
"We used no voices or narration, just music because we wanted to keep the symbols "open" to interpretation. Although the concept was fine, what we did with it was disastrous!
(the audience was confused and summarily nobody saw it.)
Communication=that's what video is all about, whether the format is entertainment, documentary, event coverage, news, training, or drama.

 

[Antimatter]

I really can't believe HBO cancelled Raised by Wolves, such a shame. It had one of the better story concepts I've encountered in a while, and I liked that it was legit written to be exactly what it was, rather than a book or graphic novel adaptation like everything else these days. And they had fucking Ragnar too?! Like who was asleep at the wheel when it came time to renew!? Alas. Anyhow, since the thread was about story...

Off-topic, but a fun discovery that got me today. The character - Father - from Raised by Wolves is played by Abubakar Salim. The voice of Bayek in Assassin's Creed: Origins. He's now a founder of a new dev company and the main creative force behind Tales of Kenzera™: ZAU, an indie metroidvania game.



How cool is that?