Baldur's Gate III News

Antimatter

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Hey @Black Elk, it's so good to see you here! I echo a lot of what you've said: the radio silence you mention, either intended or unintended due to longer development cycles, COVID, or a company growing too quickly, just feels so odd for an EA title; then there is the 100% reliance on the EA telemetry, which would be indeed wrong due to people holding out or playing it for the 400th hour instead.

There is an old post-mortem on D:OS 2 where the problem of relying on data without looking too closely at context and ignoring the user base's feedback is mentioned.

 

alice_ashpool

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I think the base game will probably end up entertaining for what it is, but the EA will also go down as a cautionary tale about how not to develop a computer role playing game - with the player base looking over your shoulder and breathing down your neck for 2 years. Whether or not it was intended, Larian presents as largely ignoring the people who bought into BG3 early or who signed up for their home feedback boards, with the result that I think their EA telemetry will be rather off and their feedback colored by the fact that half their EA players are holding out, while the other half are going non stop to the Nth degree. It's unclear what sort of feedback they're receiving or taking to heart.

More importantly though I think there are many ways they could have made their EA itself more gameful and the feedback/focus group process more lively and a lot more iterative, or just to somehow feel more Dungeons & Dragons during the downtime. The changes they've made thus far were too small and too infrequent to really engender the sense like "Damn, this is changing all the time and getting cooler by the day! This GM is on hit!!! I better play again so I don't miss out!!!" Instead it's more like "really? that's it? after 4 months?" Maybe it's unfair to expect so much of BG3, but I just can't help it. By not leaning into that that big wave they caught at the start I think they're really running the risk of crashing out here, when it counts most during the final stretch.

It's honestly probably just a really shitty way to have to do creative work on this scale, to open the doors so early like that and then get totally flooded instantly. I'm not sure they fully grasped what having "D&D" in the title would actually entail, just in terms of pulling people out of the woodwork from all quarters, but then again I also get the feeling that the world ending plague might have done a number on them in ways that may just be depressing to read about later with the inevitable post mortem. It's too bad, because for 2 years they've had a quite captive audience that would probably have made for an enduring resource and great word of mouth, but instead they went all radio silence with it, which I think was the wrong call. I also get the sense that the EA was all refinement, with very little experimentation or swings for the fences to try and keep the players amped for the development process. I guess it's possible this may still occur during the remaining year until the full game actually drops, but it's kinda hard to imagine what that looks like now.

People are probably too used to what's there and already in place and too wedded to the idea that everything they're experiencing now is, in-effect, the final product (or at least the first 3rd of it), so to suddenly start changing a lot of stuff around now as 'part of the fun' would just ruffle too many feathers. If they'd made more dramatic changes earlier, then people would instead view the EA itself like an evolving D&D campaign, or an experience unto itself. One that might be sort of ephemeral and transient, but still one for the ages, thus making players want to participate. Rather than just waiting until it's 'all done, and finished,' if that makes sense? They didn't really create that atmosphere though, which would have required many more patches and probably some EA version of the full game, not just it's first act, to actually work. They could have jumped around more too. Like why does it need to start at the beginning and do the same thing constantly, or even follow the same story beats each time? They could have yanked stuff around and let the curtain fall on some sections/aspects, introduced others, changed who was where and what was when, then returned to it later, with yet more changes. Then the whole thing might have felt like a growing evolving project that players could just enjoy without having to take out the critical broadsword to every little aspect. Maybe that's trickery and muddying the waters for the appearance of depth, but I think it would have been a much cooler approach. They didn't keep us guessing enough about what it might become though, so it just sorta devolves into grumbling and impatience and criticism, probably unfair for the most part, but that's just kinda what happens when you show off a rough draft.

I suspect like some others here, I download the latest patch every few months, like I just did for patch 8. I'll play for maybe a dozen hours and then dip, because I don't want to make Act 1 a chore for myself later on. I kick around on their feedback boards, but it feels futile and sort of annoying. And yet I know I'll have to commit to at least one play through of the full game, just purely on general principle, so I linger from time to time. But yeah to that question a few posts up regarding connections to Baldur's Gate, it doesn't feel much like it's predecessors to me right now and it's hard to tell if that's really even a priority. I'm clearly invested in the game or at least the legacy that made it possible, but BG3 feels like the sequel to the pnp campaign module Descent to Avernus, and not to the Tales of the Sword Coast or Throne of Bhaal CRPGs like I was expecting. Not that that's the worst thing I can imagine, but it just feels too much like misdirection to me. That said I do remain hopeful. It's hard to imagine wanting anything with Baldur's Gate in the name to fail, so I'm still pulling for it, but yeah the EA just has me all salty sometimes lol.

Then I remembered this spot existed so had to stop by and chime in right quite! lol
Hope you are all well! Catch ya on the next one!
I remember the heady days of BGIII forum enthusiasm. These days i'm just curious what the final product is going to look like - can anything live up to that early hype?
 

Black Elk

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I know right! So true!

Still, I think there are things they could have done to give their players a more palpable sense of EA progression, at least month-to-month if not week-to-week. One relatively simple and inexpensive thing they could have done, after apparently expanding their crew, opening a new studio branch, hiring hundreds of additional people etc, was to make sure that a couple of those new hires had the express task a developing new boards and fostering a sense of community there. Or on the dev promo side, to make sure that new features/content were being put in front of the player immediately. In other words, to focus on Char Creation, and those areas/aspects of the game which the players encounter early on rather than several hours into a playthrough. Stuff which might contribute to making each run feel less repetitive. Maybe it's trite, but dressing up the windows does work. If you want people to show up to your holiday party or whatever, then make an effort! Put out a bigger punch bowl and some appetizers, hang some decorations and hire a dj. I don't know, but something. In two years, they haven't even added any new load screens lol.

I think they must have figured that their Panels from Hell and a new Class every 4 months would be sufficient to wow us, but it's not, and anyway that doesn't really involve the players in the experience in a very meaningful way. Their existing forums are very obviously like 20 years old and a clear after thought, or maybe just a non thought - bloated, slow to load, and lacking in basic functionality. Even the default avatars look all ancient and themed around another game series. But more importantly, they just absconded as soon as it started to fill up with new arrivals. They allowed the loudest and most caustic personalities to dominate the conversation (if it can even be called that) to the point where it all just came to resemble an extended steam review or reddit ramble. Instead of feeling like I'm visiting a warm cozy tavern and amping myself up for D&D, while I wait for something to happen, the experience of the Larian boards is like this bickering Philosophy class knife-fight or something. It's just unbearable, kinda sad and embarrassing to see how quickly it devolved. I keep hoping they'll just cut it off like an infected limb, to save the rest of the body by maybe creating a new spot, but I'm pretty sure we've flatlined already like a year ago. I don't know, maybe they'll get with the program and revamp stuff when it actually launches, but then it's like damn, what a waste of an Early Access. Could have done so much more with it.

Well whatever, least I got to watch your BG1 chapter by chapter replays I guess. I mean it wasn't a total bust I suppose, but still heheh.
It's good to see some familiar faces here! Hope your week is going well!
 
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O_Bruce

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I wonder at what point fans' disappointment from infrequent and not-as-impressive updates from the eternal EA will change into apathy. I'm not going to lie, if I made the mistake of paying for EA, I'd be going in that direction already.
 

Antimatter

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After browsing the Larian forum a bit, I see there are many followers of this game who don't agree with the changes Larian have made to D&D.

Even one comment under the Eurogamer article has that criticism as well:

"in the last two years of EA almost every single change they made was very poorly received (with GOOD reason, too) and most of the "improvement" they introduced in two years of beta consisted precisely in reverting most of the stuff they arbitrarily put in to begin with.

You had:

  • "jump as a free disengage" that encouraged the users to play the game as a bunnyhop contest where characters were constantly leapfrogging over each other (and yes, it looked as stupid as it sounds).
  • "Advantage for high ground/disadvantage for low ground" where the bonuses to your attack for being even just a couple of meters above the enemies (or conversely the malus for being below) were so massive that hardly any other spell or ability really mattered.
  • "Backstab advantage" where basically walking slowly around the enemies to attack "from behind" gave the Advantage bonus that made countless class abilities and spells completely redundant.
  • "Food for healing HP" where food acted as an healing potion, which tied with the hilarious overabundance of food in the game made completely trivial to be constantly healed to full health.
Etc, etc, etc.

Even to this day, the most broken mechanics and the most criticized in the current build of the game are STILL the ones where Larian took liberties from the source material.
Like the lack of a proper reaction system or an overpowered "Shove as an action bonus" that turned every fight with the AI in a Benny Hill skit where a bunch of angry characters keep pushing each other few meters away at any given chance."
 

Chronicler

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I mean, for what it's worth in theory a broken mechanic in early access isn't a terrible thing. This part of the game development basically exists to tweak that sort of stuff until it's not broken, or at least until it's fun.

Though the way this fellow describes it, it doesn't sound like they're really tweaking these mechanics. It sounds like they implement the initial broken form, get feed back that it's broken, and then just nix it entirely. Perhaps a case of being a bit too beholden to the fans?
 

Chronicler

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  • "Advantage for high ground/disadvantage for low ground" where the bonuses to your attack for being even just a couple of meters above the enemies (or conversely the malus for being below) were so massive that hardly any other spell or ability really mattered.
Coming back to this one for a moment. "Even just a couple meters above the enemy"

That's not a trivial amount of high ground. That's a full human body's length. At 2 meters your toes are level with their forehead, assuming you're both approximately 6ft tall. You probably can't even swing at them all the way down there while standing upright.

If this user is listing that as a mild and ubiquitously available high ground then that could be a level design problem as much as anything else.
 

alice_ashpool

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Without ever saying it outright, afaik, Larian have tacitly acknowledged with their persistent attempts to "jazz up" BG3s mechanics that turn-based 5e combat on a computer is dull and the more of it you do, the duller it becomes. Having played a lot of Solasta recently I agree: it is dull, it is repetitive, it is uninspiring, and worst of all, it lacks permutations: it doesn't make you think because it is too simplistic - it makes me bored because it doesn't stretch the brain - it feels like eating baby food.

When the DM is a computer, streamlining of the complexity for a human DM means the chickens come home to roost.

So I support creativity in mechanics, and hell, if it doesn't work then thats what their geological timescale early access was fore I suppose!

The only problem is that for the east come the 5e RAW obsessives, for the west the Baldur's Gate nostalgics, for the north the Larian DOS afficionados and for the south the D&D enthusiasts. And tunnling form underground I suppose the cRPG grognards. No way in hell do i want a job at larian.
 

Chronicler

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Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 also didn't stick religiously to the sourcebook. We generally view it that they knew when and how to change things up to match the new medium, where the criticism here seems to be that Larian are doing it poorly, in ways that create a worse game.

Now, is it the case that we look at BG1 and 2 through the rose tinted glasses of a past success, where Larian in the present day must deal with all the natural push back against anything new and different? Yeah, I have to imagine that's a factor to an extent. But ultimately I think only time will tell whether these criticisms will be validated or refuted by hindsight. 20 years from now we're either gonna say these guys were right on the money or we'll have long forgotten about any initial resistance to the experimentation in a generally beloved title.

Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker is kind of like that. So many people hated the new art style when the promotional material was first released but in the end history treated that decision pretty kindly.
 

m7600

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The only problem is that for the east come the 5e RAW obsessives, for the west the Baldur's Gate nostalgics, for the north the Larian DOS afficionados and for the south the D&D enthusiasts. And tunnling form underground I suppose the cRPG grognards. No way in hell do i want a job at larian.
And airstriking from above, other studios / companies that might be interested in taking a shot at the Baldur's Gate saga.

*cough* Owlcat *cough*
 
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mlnevese

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Most successful computer RPGs do not adhere strictly to P&P rules... sometimes they make things easier, sometimes they make things harder, add stuff that do not exist in the core material, etc.. What works on a table when you are playing with your friends will not necessarily work in a videogame where you are often playing alone.
 

Antimatter

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According to the recent news bit, the next major update for Baldur’s Gate 3 is coming in December:

"New features will be live before the year is out, accompanied by a festive Panel From Hell that will give you a peek at what’s to come in 2023!

In the Community Update accompanying that Panel From Hell, we’ll go into detail about some of the most discussed topics in the community. The good news is that
we’re on track for release in 2023– and we’ll have more on that in December. Acts 2 and 3 of the story are being actively playtested to ensure they’re up to the same level of polish and you’ll soon discover that there’s much more in the works (or already complete) than what you’ll encounter in an Early Access playthrough. Our goal is for even the players who have repeated Act 1 over and over again for hundreds of hours to feel like there’s a whole new experience in store for them at launch."

The rest of that article provides insight into the motion capture tech Larian is using.
 
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