Baldur's Gate III News

Chronicler

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Strictly speaking, I don't think the characters have set alignments, like you can just read it off their character sheet. We only infer their alignment from their words and deeds. The vampire for example is a homicidal maniac who lengthens his cursed unlife by shortening the lives of others, which most people consider evil, but there's no hint of his alignment beyond that.

That could possibly point to what you're saying, with the fluid changing alignments. Without any clear set in stone alignment marker, we can only re-examine our understanding of his morality as we learn more about him, see new sides of him.

Though, if you're somebody who wants a more typical heroic group, it still seems a bit much to ask that you recruit some ragtag band of scoundrels and trust you'll turn them to the cause over the course of the journey. Doesn't really solve the issue of there being some initial deal with the devil required before we can get to hero town.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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Answering in general but also tagging @BelgarathMTH because my post refers to NPCs and alignment.

First of all, let me talk about the recruitable companions:

"Noble by birth, Wyll made his name as the heroic 'Blade of Frontiers'. He keeps his pact with a devil well-hidden, and is desperate to escape the hellish bargain - even if that means rescuing the seductive creature that made the deal."

I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't looked into Early Access footage or played it, but Wyll didn't make this pact out of greed for everlasting riches, beauty or long life.
He's just a person who made a hard choice for a reason very important to him, and it doesn't seem that he was fully aware of what he got into.
Does the past matter? I think we all have done things we regret at some point. What matters are the lessons we learn from that, if we own up to our mistakes, try to correct them, and what kind of choices we make here and now.
So I'd prefer to judge people by how they behave.
As my favourite Turian once said "I'm all for second chances. Not so sure about third ones."

"One of Shar's dark disciples, Shadowheart was sent on a suicide mission to steal an item of great power. While wrestling with her faith and strange, untamed magic, Shadowheart has enemies on all sides - and a long-buried secret to uncover."

Yes, I know, Shar. But "wrestling with her faith" can mean anything, and there are those hints leading to discussions among fans about Selune.

I also know D&D rules, especially 2E, were very rigid about alignment, but we've had countless discussions about that in several places and mostly agree it's not realistic. This is not a chess board, it's a video game with interactions and real people, and real people are complex and contradictory, and especially capable of growth and change.

I remember how some people felt about the companions in D:OS2, like Lohse with the demon possessing her (although she didn't invite him in), Fane as an undead, Red Prince as a lizard, Sebille as an assassin and besides that thing that elves eat flesh, etc.

I played as Lohse, and she's a wonderful character. She could have committed "heroic" suicide, too. Instead she went out to try to save herself and others, to face her fears and her demons and to counter the cold of the Void and the cruelty of the magisters with her music and her humour.
Fane, the undead. He's not a lich, he's a scholar, a scientist. He has some skeletons in his closet (bad pun fully intended), but it's more of a tragedy than an "evil" choice in his path, he makes choices along the way, and your talks with him and relationship with him (if you don't play as him, obviously) can influence the direction of those choices. Once getting to know him a bit better, his comments were always thoughtful and compassionate, and in several situations he was more inclined towards showing mercy than Ifan, for example.
To say it with Fane's own words: "Fear of the unknown, fear of change: These are the things that poison civilizations."

What am I trying to say with this? I have full confidence that the writers at Larian can give characters a complex background story without a future set in stone. Change, growth, evolution, people who feel like "real" people with real personalities, who have their own motives, who don't either obey the protagonist or get killed, I vastly prefer that over a full party with 5 Ajantis Ilvastarr clones.

Personal preference plays a role of course, but to have a full cast of complex, interesting companions that cover every possible class or team roll in every possible variation of gender and alignment was simply never realistic. Not in a game that has voice actors, 3D graphics, cutscenes and more than 2 lines of banter for every character.

But even in older, isometric games, there are complex characters who don't fulfill the stereotypes of their heritage.
@BelgarathMTH have you played Planescape: Torment? I haven't finished it yet, but there's a recruitable companion, Fall-From-Grace, the owner of the Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts (and doesn't that name deserve a prize already? If I ever open a tavern IRL, I think I'll give it that name). She's a succubus by heritage, but her alignment is Lawful Neutral and her behaviour definitely skewing more towards good. You'd miss out on all of that if you just wrote her off by thinking succubus=evil.
Interestingly, she belongs to the Society of Sensation, whose motto contains the sentence "Know the universe by experiencing it fully."
(also that the multiverse doesn't exist beyond what can be sensed, but that's not the point here)
And of course there's the most famous question from that game: "What can change the nature of a man?"

(Oh and I just remember there was a very touching side quest with a love story about a succubus and her lover in D:OS2. But I kissed her so maybe I just think she was kind because I'm her thrall now)

I'm not telling other people how to play their games of course. I have done fully roleplayed paladin runs too, in the Baldur's Gate series and in Neverwinter Nights, and it was quite the challenge leading to some unusual approaches, decisions and extra difficulties in unexpected places. It was also very satisfying in its own way, to say I got through without the "tricks" and all. And yet, even there the balance between "lawful" and "good" always led to complications and interesting discussions about ethics.

What makes a good protagonist a good person? Surrounding themselves with perfect people only? Opting out of the situation (the tadpole, the less-than-perfect company you find yourself in) through suicide, or making the best of a difficult situation, trying to work with what you have, save who you can and find a way to protect the rest of the world from being taken over by the mindflayers?
Would a good person rather fail at their task than cooperate with someone they wouldn't be friends with if they met in the town square, or would they work with them for a time until they get out of there and all bets are off, unless maybe getting to know them better makes you realize you might have been prejudiced?

A vampire can't possibly have any good left in him? A cleric of Shar can only be ruthlessly evil and one glance at her tells us that's all there is to her?
"The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air."

Not so long ago, people in our real world have considered some very normal and human things inherently bad, sinful or evil, and too many still do. (Did you know that some people actually complain about the narrator's voice in BG3, that she sounds too distractingly sexy and seductive?)

I'd say, (and I believe I use that quote about twice per month so bear with me ) Terry Pratchett got it right when he let Granny Weatherwax say "Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things."

There's also the fact that Larian devs have said there will be the option to recruit mercenaries. So even if someone can't even find one of those origin characters that resonate with them, they can create a custom main character, treat chapter 1 as "get out of here no matter how, because dead or transformed I can't save myself and the world from being taken over by mindflayers", ditch every temporary ally after that, and later when they're available just team up with Minsc, Jaheira and a custom mercenary or the other one companion you could live with.
There might also be a "Lone Wolf" option again like the D:OS games had.

I'm not saying someone should play a game they're not comfortable with. Just trying to broaden the horizon a bit by pointing out that even "classic" D&D based RPGs weren't as rigid as we might think, and that my experience with the Divinity: Original Sin games gives me confidence that there will be character development or discovery for companions beyond their stereotypes, that there will be multiple options which sides to ally with during the game, and multiple approaches to solve situations that should appeal to people favouring non-violent solutions and still getting XP for it. Sometimes tough choices happen, but being ready to make them and live with the consequences can feel quite heroic too.

I think the main reason that all of that isn't as obvious in chapter 1 is because it's Early Access, not all content is ready even there and some things will be kept secret so that even people who played it to death can still discover new stuff at release, and also it's a very restricted situation considering the narrative and the location. "Get out there in one piece" leaves very little room for roleplaying, but as I said, considering my experience with previous Larian games, I fully expect the game and the options how to play it to open up significantly at a later stage.
 

BelgarathMTH

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@Urdnot_Wrex , thank you for taking so much time to write such a thoughtful and detailed response. There's certainly a lot of food for thought there.

I think I would have to be in a certain kind of mood that I haven't been in for a long time before I'd want to play a game that presents me with those kinds of ethical and psychological challenges. A very good mentor and friend once said something to me that has stuck with me into my late middle age: "There comes a point where we have to ask ourselves why we're doing a thing."

Lately, I play games to escape all the bad things about reality, and I just want to turn my mind off and enjoy pretty colors and environments with fairy-tale type monster killing and heroics. That's the "why I'm doing it". I don't care for grim-dark tones any more, and I've quit playing some very good games and watching some very good television shows and movies just because I wasn't enjoying the tone.

Maybe that's the source of my distaste for a lot of newer games including (so it looks so far) BG3? I keep trying to put my finger on it, and nice friends like you keep trying to give me insights, which I appreciate.

"O Freunde, nicht diese Tone, sondern lasst uns angenehmere anstimmen, und freudenvollere! Freude!"

Lately I keep feeling the same as Schiller and Beethoven about that.
 
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Antimatter

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Hot takes from the Panel from Hell:
  • New faces and hairstyles added, and non-binary gender identity
  • Jaheira and Minsc are confirmed as companions/adversaries based on your actions
  • Jaheira played by Tracy Wiles
  • Minsc voiced by Matt Mercer
  • Character level 5 & lvl 3 spells are confirmed for the patch releasing today
  • Counterspell (reactions implementation). Now allows you to pause the game and take reactions (if you set this in settings)
  • Actually, the whole new full reaction subsystem/menu
  • Oathbreaker subclass is a hidden subclass
  • No further large/content patches. This is the last one before 1.0

I would recommend--to everyone--watching the part where writers & narrative designers explained about the world of BG3, the characters in it, the player choices, and connections to the original games.
 
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Chronicler

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Oathbreaker sounds weird to me.

Apparently in 5e, when paladins break their sacred vows, they don't fall like in 2e, but rather become even more powerful.

So their oath isn't really the source of their power, as the description would seem to claim. If anything it's a power inhibitor.

Obviously that's not something Larian's in charge of. Just my first time hearing about it.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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Oathbreaker sounds weird to me.

Apparently in 5e, when paladins break their sacred vows, they don't fall like in 2e, but rather become even more powerful.

So their oath isn't really the source of their power, as the description would seem to claim. If anything it's a power inhibitor.

Obviously that's not something Larian's in charge of. Just my first time hearing about it.

They showed the scene how it happens in-game in the stream, it's actually quite interesting how it's implemented. You'll see if you watch it.
 

Chronicler

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Having seen the Oathbreaker thing, it seems like a cool way to roleplay somebody that loses their faith so to say without penalizing the player too hard. I think I'll probably have a lot of fun with it.

But it still feels weird to me. Like if their power is supposed to come from all these stringent rule they abide by, then failing to abide by these rules doesn't mean you've tapped into the dark side of the force or anything. It just means you're a regular jackass. Like if you give up chocolate for lent, and then cave and grab some chocolate, you're not like some crazy satanist now or anything, you're just kind of bad at doing catholicism. In this scenario you're basically Samson after cutting his hair.

In the scene, it seemed to be going in the direction that breaking his vows meant he was scouted out by new dark masters, but then the dude was talking about how this dark power was already growing inside of him, replacing the old holy power, before he'd even converted.

This seems a little different to me than something like a blackguard, an evil paladin that has evil vows.
 

Nimran

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It does seem like Oathbreakers in 5E kinda skip a step towards becoming evil mass slaughterers; that tiny little step in between extremes where you’re just a normal person. I figure the reason for it is just impatience on the part of players and dms alike, where they don’t want to spend a lot of time with an underachieving character, so they just skip that part and go straight for the ‘servant of darkness’ angle.

Oathbreakers can be fun to play, though. I had one who rode an undead elephant into battle, wielding a very long glaive.
 

Chronicler

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It does seem like Oathbreakers in 5E kinda skip a step towards becoming evil mass slaughterers; that tiny little step in between extremes where you’re just a normal person. I figure the reason for it is just impatience on the part of players and dms alike, where they don’t want to spend a lot of time with an underachieving character, so they just skip that part and go straight for the ‘servant of darkness’ angle.

Oathbreakers can be fun to play, though. I had one who rode an undead elephant into battle, wielding a very long glaive.
That's actually a really good point. Both games and stories sometimes demand you kind of skip over the boring parts, and this is kind of both.

In the same way that the bhaalspawn saga didn't make you play all the parts where you were just some helpless prisoner between games. You just jump forward to the prison break.

Sometimes that can mean a more literal timeskip but sometimes that can mean a more non-literal truncation of the experience.
 

Chronicler

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Brief aside, with the introduction of the paladin, Larian apparently changed the class of an NPC named Minthara to be a paladin.

I've seen some people speculating that she'll be a recruitable companion later in the game, since there is no paladin companion currently.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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Brief aside, with the introduction of the paladin, Larian apparently changed the class of an NPC named Minthara to be a paladin.

I've seen some people speculating that she'll be a recruitable companion later in the game, since there is no paladin companion currently.
A paladin of Lolth? Now that would be something to make a Cleric of Shar look like a friendly companion.

By the way, they really did well with the voice actors. I really like how Shadowheart speaks, she has a pleasant voice. And of course the narrator, Amelia Tyler, "Mama Malady" from DOS2.
Not surprised they picked very well for Minsc and Jaheira too.
 

Zaxares

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While I'm a bit disappointed that Jim Cummings or Heidi Shannon (although she didn't return for Siege of Dragonspear either) won't be returning to reprise their roles, Matt Mercer is an astounding VA talent, so I trust that he'll do Minsc justice. :)

I got a reply back too from Larian Support regarding the CE, for those who might be curious. They confirmed that, sadly, they currently do not ship the CEs outside of NA/EU/Oceania, due to various financial and legal factors. They are looking into getting alternate suppliers, but that we should not bank on that occurring prior to launch. Fortunately, I do have a brother living in Europe that I can ship it to and have him bring it over, but for anyone else who might be stuck in the same position as me, it would be a good idea to start looking for similar arrangements before the CEs run out.
 

Chronicler

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From what I hear Heidi Shannon's just disappeared off the map. Nobody can track her down.

Weird to think about that sort of thing. In modern day it can really feel like all you ever have to do is punch somebody's name into twitter and there they are, but sometimes you ask your casting director about that actor you worked with 20 years ago and they're just like "I have no idea how to contact this person. We lost touch several phone numbers and addresses ago."
 

Chronicler

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So, my own unanswered question at this point is "Whatever happened to that promise we got way back that there would be good aligned origin companions?"

While I would enjoy seeing Jaheira and Minsc again, I feel strong distaste for the cast of companions introduced, and it looks to me like those originals that you see in the logo are what we are going to get, with any other companions being available after Act I, if at all (not counting the Minsc and Jaheira tease).

A githyanki frontline fighter is okay. Wizard who might explode, maybe. Guy with a succubus attached is starting to make me uncomfortable. But there is no way in heck I am going to play a game in a party with a cleric of Shar and a vampire. So where do I get a cleric and a thief if I don't play those roles myself?

They've made it look like you have to make a deal with a devil to resolve the main plot. At that point, any D&D character I would play would be considering some kind of honor suicide to stop the tadpole inside from becoming a mind flayer, without needing to deal with devils. Game over for me before the end of Act I.

Part of the appeal of original BG for me was the huge cast of potential companions of varied alignments, classes and backgrounds. That was also part of its replayability for me. I just don't see the same being true for BG3. I wonder if maybe writing fully voice-acted companions with story arcs precludes having too many of them? I could see where it would.

I've expressed all these reservations many times before to the people here, so it's really nothing new from me. I think the answer to my own questions has likely got to be, "This game just isn't marketed to people with your tastes in games, Belgarath." And I'm fine with that. I definitely don't want to rain on the parade for all the people who are excited, and I won't keep repeating myself after this.

The main point of my post is just that I'd be interested in reading anything that's been said by Sven or another developer about anything in BG3 for players who like to roleplay on the side of good.
Hey! Just found some very pertinent information!


Elsewhere, player concerns will be addressed by the introduction of numerous new companion characters. “There's been a group of people complaining about the fact that the companions are snarky and they have to have an opinion,” Vincke reveals. “But we’ve only put the ‘evil’ and the ‘neutral’ ones out there. We haven't put any of the ‘good’ characters in yet, so I think that will balance that.

The early access only has the evil and neutral companions. This is confirmed. They thought the evil playthrough wouldn't get sufficiently tested if they didn't incentivize players to favour it.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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The early access only has the evil and neutral companions. This is confirmed. They thought the evil playthrough wouldn't get sufficiently tested if they didn't incentivize players to favour it.

Exactly. They confirmed that in the beginning, but since Early Access was rather long, some people forgot about it, or others who started looking more closely at the game and information at a later time simply didn't know (and trolls or haters conveniently ignored it). I had also forgotten already that they literally said that and it wasn't just speculated or implied.

Thanks for linking the article. It's from 2020, so people probably only find that information if they actively search for it.
 

Antimatter

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At the same time, the question is whether Larian still remembers that (I mean, COVID and a lot of changes happened since then) and what exactly they meant by saying there would be no good companions during the Early Access. Previously, there has already been a case of missaying: the infamous comment by Swen that you can't miss in combat. Because if we get Minsc and Jaheira (after Act 1), the phrase about the Early Access content having only evil and neutral companions stays technically correct. It's a double-edged sword, the Early Access. Even for me, it's a bit difficult to imagine a few new companions in Act 1. I hope, they at least give one more there. Getting 2 would be a surprise.
 

BelgarathMTH

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At the same time, the question is whether Larian still remembers that (I mean, COVID and a lot of changes happened since then) and what exactly they meant by saying there would be no good companions during the Early Access. Previously, there has already been a case of missaying: the infamous comment by Swen that you can't miss in combat. Because if we get Minsc and Jaheira (after Act 1), the phrase about the Early Access content having only evil and neutral companions stays technically correct. It's a double-edged sword, the Early Access. Even for me, it's a bit difficult to imagine a few new companions in Act 1. I hope, they at least give one more there. Getting 2 would be a surprise.
Sure, I did remember that, and it's exactly what my post was referring to when I said "Whatever happened to the promise that...". I don't see it ever happening this late in the development, so I consider it a broken promise. I don't think the devs at Larian like to play good, classically heroic characters themselves; they don't like good, classically heroic stories, and they don't like to write them, so I will be pleasantly surprised if they come through with any characters or story that classically good-loving me will like or want to play.
 
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