BG Classic Trilogy: The one where I've lost my marbles

JustKneller

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Beatrix chose the Shadow Thieves. They were villains, but at least they were people, unlike the vampires. Besides, this would give her a peek into their operation and Beatrix could then bring the scoundrels to justice after Imoen's rescue. The deal was sealed with gold and blood. More specifically, their gold and the blood of the vampires Beatrix eliminated as a required service to the Shadow Thieves. Once their clandestine (but not illegal or immoral) errands were complete, their "benefactor" put the party on a ship to the island of Brynnlaw. There they would find Spellhold where Imoen was imprisoned.
 

JustKneller

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Spellhold was a trap, both within and without. Yoshimo was a traitor and Irenicus had already taken over the institute. Beatrix found Imoen, though she was but a husk of her former self due to the sorcerer's experiments. Captured, Beatrix was exposed to the same treatment and had her soul stripped from her. This had awoken a monster within her. She would never succumb to the temptation of the Slayer. Reunited with her companions, they navigated the maze of Spellhold dungeon. At the end was their quarry, Irenicus. They fought and defeated the sorcerer, but he escaped with his life.
 

JustKneller

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I don't have any sensible prose for this next part. I mean, really, there is no sane reason to trust Saemon Havarian again after his initial betrayal. On top of that, since Irenicus fled to the Underdark and there is a portal right there in Spellhold to the Underdark, there are all the reasons in the world to tell Seamon to piss off (and even try to kill him before he does), and no reason whatsoever to go with him. But, I did anyway, only to get Jaheira the Impaler. So sue me. At least this is still 100 words.
 
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JustKneller

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The Underdark was a cruel and evil place. Beatrix could not help but wonder why anyone would live this way. Irenicus had already passed through, and in order for them to secure passage, they had to engage in some Machiavellian misdeeds. Magically disguised as Drow, the party infiltrated their city to secure stolen dragon eggs for a silver dragon who could put them on Irenicus' course. Beatrix considered the morality of her choices with the Drow, namely her use of deception and betrayal. Was it evil if it was evil she betrayed? Beatrix would ponder this for quite some time.
 

JustKneller

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I think I'm done with the prose for now. I finished the Underdark and made it back to Athkatla. Now, I'm feeling a little disconnected with the story of it all. City-of-Caverns and the Underdark were just (frankly unnecessary) diversions that added nothing to the plot. Ust Natha could have probably been expanded to become it's own story/game. But, the party returned to Athkatla, recruited Drizzt, the Shadow Thieves, and the Radiant Heart along the way, and then steamrolled Bodhi to get the Lantern of Whatever.

I think I might be starting to get annoyed. The thing is, most of my player motivation here comes from Baldur's gate being a (frankly overrated) foundational entry in the CRPG genre and I feel like I should finish it at least once to check that box. However, as I've entered Suldanessellar, I think I might have actually beat this game before and it just wasn't satisfying or memorable. I'm starting to think that I took down Irenicus, was sent to the ToB content, and then dropped out at that point due to lack of interest. Nevertheless, I'm going to power through, not just Irenicus, but the ToB content. At this point, I've cleared about half the elven city to get the materials for the Rillifane's Ritual.

Beatrix is a solid front liner. However, I'm not using Carsomyr nearly as much as I thought and only break it out for the start of certain mage battles, for the most part. The thing is, the Shield of Harmony is immensely useful for the immunities, particularly confusion, which I generally can only avoid through Chaotic Commands (but I don't have a Cleric) or some consumable or another. Carsomyr's 50% MR is a little too hit-or-miss to depend on it. I would say most of her kills have been with Frostreaver that she picked up at Nalia's Keep. It's +3, decent damage, can damage through Stoneskin for interrupts, can kill trolls, what's not to like?

Most party members (not Imoen yet) have picked up their first HLAs. Beatrix has a Deva, Jaheira has a WW/GWW, and Minsc has a WW, and Nalia has a Planetar. My next stop is the black dragon. I think a hopped up Minsc with Shadow Dragon scale and the Belt of Inertial Barrier can make short work if it. He's still using FoA, traded the DoE for Belm and is at 9/2 attacks a round (or 9 with imp haste). I'll probably throw in a couple of fire elementals and mordy's swords, as well as the Deva and Planetar just to hedge our bets.
 

JustKneller

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Son of a bitch.

I've beat this game before. The tears of Bhaal, the Slayer fight with Irenicus, all his new lackeys thrown in the mix for the final fight. I've done this before. I remember now. I know I haven't done ToB, though. So, I have still yet to really do a full trilogy run. I guess I have that going for me.

I also remember being disappointed by the final battle. To be honest, the final Sarevok battle was much more interesting (possibly because the player power level was lower and you had to leverage you assets a little better). But what was disappointing the most was the story. This wasn't Beatrix's story or Imoen's story. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, possibly specially chosen for the bhaalspawn thing. But, at the end of the day, this was Irenicus' story and the party was just an observer.

In any event, the demons were pretty easily handled with a summon steamroller. Beatrix kept Irenicus busy while the rest of the team took care of that. Afterwards, I had Nalia and Imoen slinging all the spell protection stripper and true strike so the remaining summons and planetars could beat down Irenicus. Done and done. I'm not sure what Irenicus was doing doing the fight. It was a lot of dispels and symbol spells that just didn't hit. However, the party wasn't really buffed and had too many hps for the symbols. Maybe the demons were meant to wear them down so the symbols would hit? the only thing that managed to get stunned though was a Planetar.

I think, once I finish this once and for all, I'll spend some time in Subnautica. I could use a nice relaxing swim in a survival horror ocean to decompress from the BG grind...:p

Ok, time to go play Highlander ToB and put this thing to bed once and for all and forever.
 

JustKneller

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Finished the first pocket plane battle. I'm not sure how to RP this since it's all pretty linear, somewhat nonsensical, and even a bit rushed. It's basically, prove that you are above the bhaalspawn blood that drives people to murder by murdering a bunch of random enemies. But, the party is in Saradush now, and after some side-questing, they are winding their way through the prison/sewer to (presumably) face off against their first Bhaalspawn sibling.
 
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JustKneller

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I'm still at it, though I've been cheating on my run with a little Subnautica for a reprieve. I'm starting to lose constitution with this run, but I'm just slowing down not giving up. Currently, I'm irked by the orcs in the prison area having human soundsets. If the devs wanted to recycle, they should have just used the orog's sounds, or even gnolls would have been better.

I don't have much to say about Beatrix, character-wise. I think I'm headed to the sewers to fight vampires, but I can't remember why. I know I need to get into the palace and kill the bhaalspawn despot-king. Or maybe the sewers are the long way around to the king?
 

JustKneller

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Trigger warning: offensive hot take to follow.

Ok, I'm done. I'm calling it. ToB is an expansion pack anyway. It's optional by its very nature. I finished the BG saga as far as I'm concerned. ToB is just too terrible to go on. From the Orcs with the human soundsets to the tragically underdeveloped story, it's just plain bad. I consider this to be done. I can't imagine the last sliver of expansion pack is going to redeem it. I can finally shelf it, wait for a steam summer sale for Subnautica Below Zero, and move on with my life.

As such, I can give my final official verdict on this game. This is likely a good place for it. A quiet corner of the web, at the end of an Actual Play that probably only two people are reading. My final assessment of Baldur's Gate, after all these years is...

0/5!!!

OMG, did I just do that!? The golden child of cRPGs and I'm giving it a zero rating. I think the only other games I've played that I would give a zero rating is Postal and Final Fantasy X-2. BUT, I can rationalize this. I really can.

TLDR: Baldur's Gate is like going to a restaurant that serves Rocky Mountain Oysters and ordering them for dinner. You're not getting them because you actually like them, you're getting them for the challenge of testing your gastrointestinal fortitude.

1) Rules Adaptation. Easily the worst D&D rules adaptation I've ever seen. Here's the thing, the rules adaptation wasn't good for Planescape Torment either, but it worked for the game they made. Baldur's Gate was just rubbish. This was like a D&D game that was houseruled by the most powergamey middleschoolers that ever played the game. And then the houserules got houserules when they realized the original houserules broke the game. But, then they added more houserules because they needed to up the cool factor to make up for the nerf. It definitely jumped the shark by the time HLAs come into the picture and probably even jumped the shark by the second game itself. There was no elegence, no finesse here.

2) Adventure design. The second game was revoltingly Monty Haul to beyond epic proportions and the first game was not much better. Not even in middle school D&D was I swimming in so much ultimately worthless loot. You kinda need a loot filter like in Path of Exile just so you can sift through it all. I will say, Durlag's Tower is a good dungeon (and had a solid story to go with it), but that's about it. Firewine Ruins was god awful and really all the dungeons in the second game were forgettable (except for how they recycled the beholders' lair map in two different places, but that wasn't the good kind of memorable). Some maps had the repetition of Icewind Dale, just without the charm. Nothing (except Durlag's) felt organic or had good flow.

3) The writing/story. I could possibly forgive the rest if it wasn't for this. I'm an orphan that discovers my father is some superpowerful being. Didn't see that coming. :rolleyes: Ok, fine, every story doesn't have to be Final Fantasy IX (yes, IX is the best of the Final Fantasys :p). I can work with trite as long as its spruced up with something refreshing. But instead, it was just felt winged with a bunch of half-assed retcons. Ok, you're 19 in Candlekeep, quite young for a Dwarf or Gnome, but sure. Bhaal walked the land as a mortal during the Time of Troubles and, having forseen his death, created the Bhaalspawn. Ok. But, that was in 1358, which would make Gorion's Ward already 10 at the time. No wait, he actually walked the land as a mortal before that, too, to create the Bhaalspawn. Riiiiight, but he only foresaw his death in the Time of Troubles. What was happening 10 years before? Spring break? And, what about the 100+ year old dragon Bhaalspawn? How many times did Bhaal pop into Faerun? Maybe he should add deadbead dads to his portfolio. Oh, and Sarevok? So, the Harpers bust up a culty temple, grab a couple kids, and then leave the rest to rot? Sure, that makes sense. If a Bhaalspawn dies, then that's that, yet Imoen has a dialogue with Sarevok about a time she died, but she could come back and is also still a Bhaalspawn. This slipshod writing permeated everything. What about the romances? Khalid and Jaheira have "long been" Gorion's friends, yet are about the same age as Gorion's Ward. Let's let that go. You've barely finished the cutscene of Khalid's death and love talks are already brewing with Jaheira. So you go from Khalid and Jaheira being new mom and dad to dad getting whacked and mom feeling saucy. The other romances aren't any better. And, I could keep going on the writing. But, it would be easier to say that I can't think of a single bit of story where, having experienced it, I thought it was actually decent.

No, I'm sorry, I have to go on. The premise and beats were not good, but then they couldn't even lob it over the plate with a good arc. The first game establishes the poorly thought out Bhaalspawn saga, and then the second game makes the entire Bhaalspawn saga an incidental variable in a totally different storyline, followed by an expansion with an absurdly rushed exposition to cinch it up like they know they're about to get cancelled by Netflix (also, fuck you Netflix for cancelling The Brothers Sun). What the hell were they thinking? They did okay enough, I suppose, with the first game, but the entire story of the second game should have been a side quest at best. And, the plot from the expansion should have been developed into the actual second game. All in all, none of it felt thought out, none of it was satisfying. It was a bunch of stoned D&Ders just riffing, or a bunch of kids just spitting out whatever garbage sounded "cool" without thinking about the implications.

But, I did it. It took a little over 25 years, but I finally ate my Rocky Mountain oysters and can take it off my bucket list. The Nameless One will always have a place in my heart and Icewind Dale will always be somewhere I'd like to visit, but Gorion's Ward? That munchkiny poor excuse for a plot device can finally just fuck off.

*mic drop*
 

Antimatter

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You have a point there, or a few even. I don't agree with 0/5 obviously (as BG2 is still my #3 all-time game) but I can see some of the criticism you've shared and agree with it.

And it's totally ok. I'm on record saying the original BG games are from their time and might not stand against some of the other games nowadays. Also, it's evident these BG games are not part of your nostalgia/childhood memories (unlike PST, for example, or Final Fantasy).

Thanks again for sharing your progress and conclusions. And no, there are definitely more than 2 people reading it. 💯
 

OrlonKronsteen

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My final assessment of Baldur's Gate, after all these years is...

0/5!!!
1746028267285.gif

😉

Seriously, an interesting take, and I agree with a lot of it. The writing was always overrated in the context of the overall experience and what was a groundbreaking degree of interactivity between party members.

I suspect you’d find similar problems with BG3.
 
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Skatan

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It’s interesting to read a quite fresh new take on things like this. I don’t with it but still I admire your tenacity playing so far and giving it a go. I still think though that if you’d played it 20 years ago it would be different. Things that are tropes and cliches today wasn’t back then so playing it today will indeed make the story seem full of it but it must have been less so back then. It would be like reading Tolkien in 2025 and judging it by comparing to everyone who borrowed a lot from there.

I agree on the bhaal spawn story. It’s not really something I enjoyed too much either, and the Imoen addition that came later was a bit off. Never been a fan of the “chosen one/son of a god/actual god” protagonist. I prefer to play more grounded characters.

But the gameplay? It’s solid, so I’m surprised you found it so boring and their rules so badly implemented. Spells are great, IMHO, and though I don’t love the HLAs they basically had to add something due to the epic levels one reaches. It’s fine and even fun IMO.

Anyways, thanks for sharing your opinion.
 

JustKneller

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I'm on record saying the original BG games are from their time and might not stand against some of the other games nowadays. Also, it's evident these BG games are not part of your nostalgia/childhood memories (unlike PST, for example, or Final Fantasy).
In truth, I have more hours in BG than I do in numerous other rpgs combined. I played the crap out of it when I was a kid. It always perplexed me why I couldn't get through this game, but I had first started playing as a kid that had yet to learn about game design, story writing, and so forth. Something was just instinctively/subconsciously off. Over the years, I think it became more apparent, but it had hung with me for so long at this point, I guess it became a point of principle to see it through.

I'm definitely not comparing it to today's standards for games. If anything, I think standards for games have somewhat declined (on average) when it comes to finesse and meaningful artistry. These games came out around 98-00. So, it's up against Half-Life, Final Fantasy VII, Fallout 2, System Shock 2, Thief: The Dark Project, and really the other IE games. On top of that, having been an avid 2e D&D gamer, I have had tons of experiences to develop a feel for that system. It may have taken me a long time to get to a place where I would compile my reflections and move on, but most of perceptions are within the context of its peers.

I suspect you’d find similar problems with BG3.
I wouldn't touch BG3 with a good ol' fashioned 10' pole. If it's more of this, but with Wizard's D&D system, I wouldn't interpret this as a step up.

The writing was always overrated in the context of the overall experience and what was a groundbreaking degree of interactivity between party members.
What was the overall experience? What was groundbreaking? I genuinely want to know because it escapes me.

It’s interesting to read a quite fresh new take on things like this. I don’t with it but still I admire your tenacity playing so far and giving it a go. I still think though that if you’d played it 20 years ago it would be different. Things that are tropes and cliches today wasn’t back then so playing it today will indeed make the story seem full of it but it must have been less so back then. It would be like reading Tolkien in 2025 and judging it by comparing to everyone who borrowed a lot from there.
I did play this game 20 years ago. I've been playing it since the 90s when it came out. I can still enjoy Tolkien now, but I found the BG saga to be either an eyeroll or cringe from the get go. I don't think tropes and cliches are inherently anathema, but if someone is going to use them, they really need to make it matter. This is basically just a knock off fantasy Star Wars, which itself was a knock off of the Hidden Fortress. It's a video game, so I don't expect cinema level quality. I could have rolled with the Bhaalspawn saga if their arc and beats were coherent. But, they painted themselves into too many corners and contradicted themselves in far too many places. I'm no Chekhov (the writer, not the fictional scientist), but I could have strung together a more coherent story than this. I could have forgiven the rest of the writing was cleaner.

But the gameplay? It’s solid, so I’m surprised you found it so boring and their rules so badly implemented.
Tell me your take on this. I'm not spoiling for a fight here, I want to understand. To me IWD is D&D done right. BG lost me with things like giving bosses cheat rings, the accountancy of abjuration versus anti-abjuration, the monty haul economy, having so many things nerfed, but then leaving a bunch of other grossly OP things in full force. I couldn't find a sweet spot between rotflolstomping the game or restricting myself to the point of uselessness.
 

mlnevese

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I wouldn't touch BG3 with a good ol' fashioned 10' pole. If it's more of this, but with Wizard's D&D system, I wouldn't interpret this as a step up.
Let me share a very unpopular opinion here. Not only does it have all the negatives you’ve pointed out about BG, but it also made me feel like my group was entirely made up of werefrog school bullies jumping everywhere and pushing people around. I really tried to like it (I have over 70 hours of playtime to prove it), but I just don’t enjoy it at all.
 

OrlonKronsteen

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What was the overall experience? What was groundbreaking? I genuinely want to know because it escapes me.
Well, the combination of gorgeous aesthetics (mainly the painted 2D backgrounds), music, tactical party combat (that, IMO has yet to be surpassed), and a degree of interactivity between party members (including romances) that, AFAIK, was hitherto unheard of. Most would probably applaud the story as well. While I didn't enjoy every aspect of it (e.g. the whole child of a god business, romances, and a lot of the character writing), the sum of its parts was wonderful IMO.

I'm probably not the best person to answer this question, though, as BG was only the 2nd CRPG I'd ever played. I had a few friends that were already veteran gamers who gushed over how revolutionary it was, however. That and the fact that so many of us are still playing it is testament that they did something right.

All that said, your criticisms are of course perfectly valid, and while I still love the game, I find myself agreeing with much of it. I've enjoyed reading your take on the game. I have a feeling we're similar in some ways, especially in the expectation of a story with strong, logical cohesion. And that is something I totally agree they didn't get right. Too many inconsistencies to even mention, and making Imoen another Bhaalspawn was ridiculous to the tenth degree.
Let me share a very unpopular opinion here. Not only does it have all the negatives you’ve pointed out about BG, but it also made me feel like my group was entirely made up of werefrog school bullies jumping everywhere and pushing people around. I really tried to like it (I have over 70 hours of playtime to prove it), but I just don’t enjoy it at all.
Thanks for planting the werefrog image in my mind, lol. I'm never going to look at my toons in the same way. You're right - the jumping is ridiculous and I wish they'd fixed that in a patch.

As to the other negatives, yeah, it's unfortunate that they felt the need to bring over a lot of the baggage from the original games. It was totally unnecessary, given that BG3 has its own core story that stands completely on its own. BG3's biggest flaw is that it's a Baldur's Gate game. I can only guess that they felt pressure to tie their creation to BG1&2, which is strange because, for all that, it doesn't resemble or feel like 'Baldur's Gate' in any way. It's not even the clever forgery many of us expected.

And BTW, I'm addicted to BG3. I think it has enormous flaws, but it still has its own magic - or, at least, those of us who like it think so.
 
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