Do you think about gameplay loops as much as I do?

[JustKneller]

I've been thinking about this more and more as time as gone on. In my early gaming days, I'd just need a good theme and I'd jump into a game. However, these days, I find myself more and more asking, "What am I actually doing in this game"? On one hand, I think it's limiting me as a gamer. But, on the other hand, I don't want to spend my time on gameplay that's not satisfying. Like, I want to game, but I want the process of playing the game to be enjoyable, not just the rewards for the activity of it. I suppose I'm starting the discussion because it's actually getting harder and harder to find games I want to play.

For example, I decided to pass on a Bioshock series run. I came across a thread recently that went on a bit about how great the story is for Bioshock Infinite. But then, I thought, I'm going to have to spend hours twitch nerve gaming clicking on stuff to get to that story. That gets boring, fast. Meanwhile. I'm playing through the Thief series, which is also technically an FPS. Ironically, it has less "activity" than Bioshock, but I feel like I'm doing more. I mean, there's a lot of hiding in shadows, observing guard/creature movement patterns, and calculating the best timing/course to do whatever I'm trying to do.

The difference is obvious to me. I'm more oriented towards cognition than reaction. So, I figure, I should be looking into something like 4x/strategy games. I have a few. I like X-Com on paper. Despite the fact that I can't play the game, I still think it's one of the best games I've seen. And, I can't play it because I inevitably get to a situation where I lose a soldier and I know that's reasonably common in X-Com. But, every time it happens, I realize that there was a better move at the time and I actually could have avoided it, I then feel guilty for getting a soldier killed, too guilty to go on. It's ridiculous, I know. It's dumb on so many levels. On one hand, I want choices that require careful thought and have meaningful consequence. But, on the other hand, I take this stuff too personally. It's the same for the game I was referring to in this post. I was thinking of running This War of Mine, but holy hell is that a depressing game. I think your people can even commit suicide there if they get depressed enough. I don't know if I want that on my conscience. I also have Surviving Mars. It's sort of a RTS 4x kind of game, but really more of a resource management sim. There's no combat. It's just gather, build, survive (mild) weather, etc. It's practically an idle game, though. You figure out pretty quickly how to automate things and, from there, basically just let it run until you meet the objective.

I dunno. I'm kinda just meandering. I want a good narrative. I want thinky gameplay. I want choices to have impact. I don't want to get depressed over it. I'm really painting myself in a corner here, huh?

Do any of you think about this stuff?

 

[m7600]

The best 4x game that I've ever played is Dwarf Fortress. Highly recommended.

As for game loops, as you put it, I don't really think about them. I've found that what I like about a game the most is its worldbuilding. It doesn't need to be fully fleshed out down to the last detail, but I want to have a glimpse of a unique world or setting while I'm playing any given game. For example, I like Super Metroid and Demon's Crest precisely because of that. They don't really give you a ton of information, but they give you glimpses of their respective worlds, which seem to be far more vast than what you actually see and interact with throughout the game. It's the same reason why I like Subnautica and, ultimately, it's the same reason why I like the different settings in Dungeons and Dragons. Planescape would be the crown jewel in that sense. Conversely, if a setting or world seems unoriginal, uninspired, repetitive or derivative of some other world or setting, I tend not to enjoy the game as much. Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous falls into this category for me. Setting-wise, there's nothing there that hasn't already been done before. I prefer Pathfinder: Kingmaker by far, due to how it uniquely portrays the trope of the Fair Folk / Wild Hunt, which turns its otherwise Tolkienesque setting on its head.

Give me a unique, intriguing world or setting and I won't care too much about the mechanics. RPGs tend to be the games that excel the most at this, but it's not exclusive to them. I'll play a 4x, a platformer, a survival game, or any other game if its world or setting really captivates me.

 

[JustKneller]

The best 4x game that I've ever played is Dwarf Fortress. Highly recommended.

I've been tempted to try it. ASCII graphics give me a headache, but I know there are tilesets. It seems like probably the most overwhelming game ever, though.

Worldbuilding is definitely important to me. I probably wouldn't be so bored with Surviving Mars if the worldbuilding wasn't so banal. As is, I played it thinking, "why couldn't you be more like Alpha Centauri?"

I liked Subnautica a lot. I wouldn't have minded more of a narrative and more to do in the game to stretch it out, but it still did well. Also, the parts I liked about Subnautica weren't just the worldbuilding, but what I was doing as part of gameplay. I mean, really, at it's core, you could say it's a 3D hidden object game, but it still tested me psychologically because of the whole ocean thing. If it was the same game, but land-based, I don't think it would have packed much of a punch.

I used to be super into D&D, but this was back in the old (or at least, middle-aged) days when the worldbuilding was better. I've tried current D&D but the settings feel like they are trying to fit in every fantasy trope and ability in a MMO kind of way. It tries to be everything and feels like nothing. But, even with the classic computer games (BG, IWD, etc.), the gameplay itself doesn't resonate with me as much anymore. I wouldn't say it's bad, but the cRPG RTWP format has been around for decades and I haven't seen it grow or evolve much. It's partly why I've hesitated to get into the newer Wasteland games.

But back on D&D. I thought about getting back into it again, though only playing classic/original editions. Contemprary D&D feels more like a CCG. Your character sheet is front-loaded with abilities. Then you play formulaic adventures, picking things off the sheet in encounters like you're ordering a meal at Denny's, and letting RNG take care of the rest. With classic D&D, the player has to puzzle out a situation, sometimes you roll, sometimes it's arbitrated. You're not "limited" by feats and special abilities. You have only your own creativity pitted against a shared imagination. Granted, contempary D&D can be stripped down and played this way, but I've never seen this done and there's really no point since other systems do this better.

I'll play a 4x, a platformer, a survival game, or any other game if its world or setting really captivates me.

I would agree with this, to an extent. I'm definitely not trying to lock on to a particular game type, per se. Like, I'll play Thief (FPS) but it doesn't play like a typical FPS. If I'm doing 4x, AC is definitely better than Surviving Mars. I like survival games, but I would say that Don't Starve Together is infinitely better than Fallout 4 Survival mode, just based on the mechanics. I think I'm basically done with BG (unpopular opinion, but it's a bad implementation of the ruleset) but I may dust off IWD in the future. Though, even though I like the setting and story, I probably won't finish a run since I'll eventually get bored of clearing maps that are just gauntlets of enemies. However, I wouldn't be opposed to a game with those type of mechanics if it was a less repetitive/monotonous loop.

I don't really know what I'm going to do after the Thief series. I suppose that's my more practical dilemma.

 

[O_Bruce]

I don't know how much it relates to gameplay loop, but lately I've been trying to pay more attention as to why I decide to play a game and what in terms of emotion it does for me. I do that, because I don't want to play a game just out of habit or just because a basic gameplay loop wants me to keep playing. Answering the question, yeah, I guess I do think about gameplay loops, but I don't think I do it as much.

 

[m7600]

I've been tempted to try it. ASCII graphics give me a headache, but I know there are tilesets. It seems like probably the most overwhelming game ever, though.

You'd be surprised at how quickly and easily you can get used to that game's ASCII graphics. It's super immersive, and yeah, it's complex. But since you like games that lean more on the brainy side of things, I'd say that Dwarf Fortress is worth checking out. About a decade ago, a player built a computer inside Dwarf Fortress, using the game's resources. A very minimalist computer, but Turing complete nonetheless. Which is insane. Here's an article from that era:

Dwarf Fortress Player Creates a Working In-Game Digital Computer

The popular strategy game Dwarf Fortress encourages players to create a home for a group of virtual dwarfs; instead one player has built a complete, working digital computer.

www.pcworld.com

 

[JustKneller]

but lately I've been trying to pay more attention as to why I decide to play a game and what in terms of emotion it does for me.

That's an interesting observation and I wouldn't disagree with it. It makes me think of Final Fantasy IX. Definitely a 5/5 game for me, even though the loop is about as simple and repetitive as it can get. However, they did such a great job with the story to get me to feel something that I could let slide the basic loop of a JRPG.

It's this thought that has me tempted to try Disco Elysium (about which @Antimatter speaks quite highly). On one hand, my impression is that the loop is just a spruced up IF with some RPG elements, but I've also heard that the story is just so good that it's worthwhile regardless.

 

[JustKneller]

lol...and just like that, almost my entire wishlist on GOG is now on sale, most things for 75-85% off.

 

[Antimatter]

For gameplay-focused games, if you're into Dwarf Fortress, look into RimWorld as well. Or Kenshi. Have a look here (I wrote about the game).

I can support what you say about Disco Elysium--it's not a big game either, around 20-30 hours. It has fun mechanics with the dice/exploration and the story/writing will be good.

 

[Antimatter]

The game I mentioned, Kenshi, is currently on a good sale on Steam (70% off).



Looking at your frustrations with BG and DA:O, I think probably a sandbox like that could be a cure.

'Too many games let their players succeed' says developer of notoriously tough survival RPG Kenshi, and 'that's mind-numbingly boring to me'

"A writer's job is to torment their protagonist," says Chris Hunt of Lo-Fi Games. "So I just adapted that."

www.pcgamer.com

 

[JustKneller]

I've been holding out for Subnautica Below Zero, which should go on sale in June. I've never heard of Kenshi, but I'm definitely going to pick this up since it sounds like my jam and the price is rock bottom.

I'm not giving up on DAO yet, though.

 

[WarChiefZeke]

Subnautica fills me with total dread. My kids can't even play it, they get too nervous , but they always encourage me to play it. It's a fantastic sim. I do like to take a peak at my bases or certain underwater spots using my vr set, makes for great setpieces.

In terms of gameplay, I find many genres of game so much more satisfying in VR. Sword-swinging adventures like Asgards Wrath 2, modded Skyrim, or Dungeon Knight, third or first person shooters like modded Fallout 4 or Onward, even genres I don't normally enjoy like racing, sports, or space ship combat. There is just something about the immersion and physical activity of it. Meta had this free soccer/frisbee hybrid game set in a zero gravity environment, where the fastest method of travel was to grab onto someone faster or push off of objects. You could punch people in the head to stun them and drop the puck. Excellent game, shame they took it down after some time.

 

[JustKneller]

Subnautica fills me with total dread. My kids can't even play it, they get too nervous , but they always encourage me to play it. It's a fantastic sim. I do like to take a peak at my bases or certain underwater spots using my vr set, makes for great setpieces.

I would love to do VR. Is there hardware for PC? I don't really know much about it. I might not be able to pull it off considering I game pretty much while multitasking, but I'd be interested in checking out out. At the very least, it's the only way to play Half-Life:Alyx.

I feel the same dread with Subnautica, though not so much on subsequent play throughs. One of the things I've done to try and get that feeling back is eschew vehicles. The Seamoth especially was a real safety net. It's a lot more harrowing with just a Seaglide.

 

[WarChiefZeke]

I would love to do VR. Is there hardware for PC? I don't really know much about it. I might not be able to pull it off considering I game pretty much while multitasking, but I'd be interested in checking out out. At the very least, it's the only way to play Half-Life:Alyx.

I feel the same dread with Subnautica, though not so much on subsequent play throughs. One of the things I've done to try and get that feeling back is eschew vehicles. The Seamoth especially was a real safety net. It's a lot more harrowing with just a Seaglide.

Yeah, the vr port for most of these games (barring Asgard's Wrath) are PC-VR ports.

I use a Quest 3, previously Quest 2. Both are compatible with Steam VR games and can be linked to the PC wirelessly or with a very long cable made for the purpose. I used the cable at first and had very little issue.

Asgard in particular is pretty impressive, it's a semi-open world rpg and very expansive compared to it's competition.