Dueling Torches...or how's the Torchlight run going (m7600)?

JustKneller

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Torchlight 2 Screenshot 2024.12.05 - 21.05.44.59.jpg

I'm in pretty good shape. I've found no additional minion gear, but have a shield with 29% block and get another 27% from my Vitality. According to the journal stats, I'm at 55% block. I'm only 20% away from the cap. Skill-wise, I have Healing Bot 8, Spider Mines 7, Gun Bot 6, Bullwark 7, Shield Bash 2, Forcefield 8, and Dynamo Field 1.

I'm currently in Act 2 and grinding the Ossean Wastes as well as the associated dungeons. I haven't gone to the final dungeon in the area yet. I'm getting a little too much resistance here, so I may level a little more before pressing on. I'm tempted to rush. I'm not that far from a portion of the game where I can acquire an NPC that sells spells. I don't have much going for me currently, magic-wise. Eiko has Barter 1, Concentration 1, Animal Handling 1, and Armor Expertise 2. Mog has Frost 1, Nether Imp 1, Silence 1, and Heal All 2. I'd like to get some Skeletons and Blood Zombies in the mix, if I could, as well as a higher level Concentration and Animal Handling.
 

JustKneller

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Something isn't setting right with me. Eiko is doing ok. It's a pretty straightforward build. Kite everything, spit spider mines as you go. My block percentage is quite high but my forcefield rarely breaks because I'm so far from the action so it's hardly utilized. I have more skill points than skills that I need. There's really only two things I need from gear: minion damage and (to a lesser extent) mana. Everything else gets turned to gold for enchanters.

But, what's not setting right with me is (especially now that I'm used to the game) all this hiding behind minions. Quite frankly, this playstyle is unbecoming of a player that beat Diablo on Hell difficulty with no deaths running a perfect beyond naked mage (all cursed items with the worst penalties possible). This minions thing is a cakewalk, but for the sake of my self-respect, I need to get my hands dirty.

So, that being said...

Torchlight 2 Screenshot 2024.12.06 - 16.50.54.35.jpg

Enter Beatrix and her faithful companion, Adelbert. Beatrix is an engineer, but fancies herself as more of a paladin-type. As such, she lives by a code of honor. She is an elite hardcore character that fights her own fights. So, no damaging summons and Adelbert is set to passive (not fighting). I believe passive also means that there's no spell I can put on Adelbert that will actually do anything. I think I want to try and avoid vendors, too, at least for gear. I can use enchanters and transmuters, but no blacksmith, gambler, etc. Everything I own will come from drops. I feel like I'll need to get potions here and there, though. I'll see how it goes.

I have almost no idea how I should build this character. Torchlight is really lacking in build information, especially for an engineer that is adding some extra challenge. I definitely think sword and shield is the way to go, as being melee means more Forcefield will break more. So, I'll need Vitality, but don't want to sacrifice Strength. I like Flame Hammer, but it sucks charges which I'd rather have in my Forcefield. I'm thinking my main skill will (eventually) be Emberquake, which can be complemented by Seismic Slam until I get access to it. Both are big fire damage skills, so I want Focus, too (as well as for mana). However, crits and dodge are important as well, so I don't want to ignore Dexterity. On one hand, I kinda need everything, but on the other hand, this means that anything is useful to me. I think 2/1/2 Strength/Focus/Vitality is a solid way to go, and then I can get Dex from enchants along the way.

Skills...I can max 8 and have 13 points to spare. I think my main skills are going to be Seismic Slam, Emberquake, Healing Bot, Fire and Spark, Forcefield, Dynamo Field, Storm Burst, and Charge Domination. Then for my miscellaneous points, I can only go nine points in Immobilization Copter. After that it starts doing damage and we can't have that. I think one point in Sword and Board. It seems like a weak skill, one point is a small price for a little boost. That leaves three points up for grabs. I may have to dump them in something like Flame Hammer since my desired skills don't start opening up until level 7.

Yeah, let's see how this goes.
 
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JustKneller

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Torchlight 2 Screenshot 2024.12.07 - 09.57.18.35.jpg

I have Flame Hammer 1, Seismic Slam 2, Healing Bot 4, Forcefield 3, and Sword & Board 1. At one point I traded in the point in Flame Hammer only to put it back when I couldn't put a point in any desired skill. I went back later to respec it out, but I had leveled too much since and now I was "stuck" with it. In truth, it's been a lifesaver. It doesn't hit hard, but it has range. So, I can use Seismic Slam when mobs close in to give them fire DoT and maybe stun, back up, and send a Flame Hammer blast their way.

I need to move slowly and try to lure one or two mobs at a time away from their pack. And, elites have to be drawn into one-on-one fights. My bane right now are Runecallers because they can summon three zombies at a time, which makes it easy to get overwhelmed. But, I just have to fall back, lure out the summons, take them out, and then make a quick strike against the Runecaller before more summons come. Rinse and repeat.

I'm struggling for a better weapon and almost gave up on my no vendor restriction. This one is a Sap that does a little bonus damage. It has two sockets so I put an iron ember shard and flame shard in for +16 physical and +7 fire damage. However, it still only whittles away at most enemies. Most of my damage is coming from the Seismic Slam/Flame Hammer combo (especially the DoT fire effect). However, I'm only doing 2 points a level into Strength, so that's probably having an effect, too. I figure this will pay off in the long run as I'll have balanced base stats for both offense and defense, and then can use the enchanter that adds to stats to push whatever I need out ahead. I can't have too much Strength and Focus. I could get away with Vitality 100, but I need to find a specific unique shield for that to work. As for Dexterity, I can probably get that from the enchanter, and it's not a super high priority.

My shield is decent for my level, 11% block chance. I'm getting 7 points from something else for a total of 18%. My shield is actually getting some mileage here, as my Forcefield is a little weak for melee. Nothing really special about my other gear.

I'm currently in a phase beast challenge in that screenshot. It's risky to do at such an early level with just mediocre gear, but I'm on this run for a challenge and to take risks. Fortunately, this one ended up being a maze challenge which is very few enemies and it's mostly a "puzzle". Otherwise, I'm in the Temple Steppes. This is good. I have enough locations open so that I can grind dungeons for better gear.
 

JustKneller

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I'm having a bit of a problem. I'm level 15 and my damage has totally tapered off. I'm still in the Temple Steppes cycling through the non-boss levels of the dungeons. The only thing that's doing any noticeable damage is the fire DoT from Seismic Slam. Flame Hammer isn't budging the HP bars, and don't even get me started on normal attacks. I'm really not sure what to do at this point except keep grinding for levels. I have read a handful of similar builds on Steam and whatnot. I'm not following any of these exactly, but I'm also in the same neighborhood of abilities. However, I posted to the Torchlight Reddit and am hoping for pointers. Maybe I missed something? At this point, Eiko had spider mines and was smooth sailing. Beatrix is stomping around (aka Seismic Slam) like an angry child, and is just about as effective as one. :p
 

JustKneller

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So...

Reddit was marginally helpful. Basically, I was advised to farm for better gear at a lower difficulty with an alt, but that seems kind cheesy to me. The other advice I was given was to pump everything into my DPS stat (which would likely be Focus for Seismic Slam or Emberquake). However, that would nerf me for gear, block chance, and a couple other useful things.

That being said, I decided to push through all the bosses in the Temple Steppes. It turned out to be quite easy, but sooooooooooooo tedious. Beatrix actually plays almost exactly the same as Eiko did. The only difference is that instead of kiting and spitting mines, Beatrix is kiting while dropping Seismic Slams so that whatever chases her pulls some fire DoT. And, when I say it was tedious, I mean, teeeee-deeeeeee-us! It took forever to take down Modrox and Grell. SS' DoT is effective, but very slow. I think I spent about a half hour on Grell. In the meantime, I took next to no damage and my Forcefield timed out far more than it broke.

This is couple with something I noticed with the controls that is much more perceptible with a melee build. So, the mouse will interact with whatever wherever you click or something nearby if it's "close enough" and the game has a very liberal definition of "close enough". It wasn't as noticeable with my ranged/minion builds because I was far away from the action and had plenty of open places to click in order to move. However, being close range with melee and having a screen full of enemies means that most places I can click are "close enough" to advance on an enemy and attack, rather than run away and kite (which is usually what I'm trying to do). It's very annoying and inconvenient and could be potentially lethal, but I'm managing.

This has me questioning the concept of a challenge in this game. I don't know if challenge can be found in the playing of it. The controls aren't that refined and the builds lend themselves to simple playstyles. Effectively just slowing down clear speed isn't a challenge. Maybe challenge is to go in the opposite direction. Aim for optimal efficiency and then play is just a meditative semi-idle experience...kinda like watching a Game of Life unfold.

Beatrix is definitely not optimal. So, is it Eiko (pure summoner) or Rebecca (Tank Girl). Rebecca definitely can put out more damage since she's supporting her minions with a cannon, but she's sacrificing defense to do so. However, Eiko's defense superiority comes primarily from her shield, which is really only a backup defense when/if her Forcefield fails. Eiko has another advantage though. Due to the "close enough" clicking, Rebecca will accidentally engage and attack (which has a pretty slow animation) far more than Eiko (who will start to advance, but I can stop pretty quickly).

Conversely, Rebecca is more skill efficient. Or, she can make better use of skill points. Eiko quickly gets to a point where more skill points does nothing for her. So, her skill benefit plateaus long before she maxes. Rebecca has a higher ceiling for her skills. And, the same goes for her abilities. Eiko really doesn't need any stats and Vitality is just a dumping ground for a boost to block. However, there are actually ways to max block without even putting a single point in Vitality. Rebecca can go pure Strength, and she is actively using this benefit.

I think Rebecca pulls out ahead. She'll be a bit harder to keep alive, but she won't have to worry about any DPS walls. At eight max skills, and 13 points to spare, that's probably Heavy Lifting, Healing Bot, Blast Cannon, Spider Mines, Gun Bot, Sledge Bot, Forcefield, Immobilization Copter for my max skills and maybe throwing a point in Storm Burst and the rest in to Coup de Grace for a slight damage boost with the cannon.

I'll have to think about this more.
 
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BelgarathMTH

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I don't see Fire and Spark as part of your build. Since you seem to have chosen Seismic Slam with some Flame Hammer as your main damage outputs, could that be a reason why you're finding your DPS lacking? Each level of Fire and Spark is a 5% increase to fire damage according to the wiki.
 

JustKneller

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I don't see Fire and Spark as part of your build. Since you seem to have chosen Seismic Slam with some Flame Hammer as your main damage outputs, could that be a reason why you're finding your DPS lacking? Each level of Fire and Spark is a 5% increase to fire damage according to the wiki.
I hadn't started on it yet, but by level 15 I had some points go that way. It's definitely a staple for Seismic Slam and Emberhammer.
 

JustKneller

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(Mostly notes for myself at this point. :))

Ok, so let's consider Eiko. Rebecca is tough to build optimally because she could always use more of everything. Eiko, on the other hand, while effective, can't really make a lot of use out of much of anything. Just for a comparison, Rebecca optimizes at about 1000 Strength, 500 Dexterity, 1000 Focus, and whatever for Vitality. Eiko makes no use of Strength (except to equip shields, which can be worked around by level grinding) or Dexterity, Focus is nice, but not really needed with decent mana regen, and could use 400 Vitality, but can also probably get away with only around 100. Keeping in mind that you only get 495 points to spend by level 100, Eiko doesn't really even need all of them. She might be worth going 3/2 Focus/Vitality. Since the shield is just a backup once I get Forcefield, I don't really need to max Vitality.

Skills-wise, Eiko has points to spare here. If she goes max Storm Burst, Healing Bot, Spider Mines, Gun Bot, Sledge Bot, Forcefield and Immobilization Copter. I have one more skill to work in with 13 more points to spare. Probably Dynamo Field and I can put the charge it generates into my Forcefield. The last 13 might be Bullwark. It's kind of a throwaway, though, and I don't like that. Bullwark is like a minor third line of defense. If my Forcefield is down AND my shield doesn't block, then Bullwark can take a tiny edge off of an attack. Maybe swap Dynamo Field for Tremor and then put the last 13 into Dynamo Field? The only problem is that I don't have a lot of low level skills, so I'll have levels with skill points and no place to put them. I've never been a fan of holding level up points for higher level things (i.e. perks in Fallout). No wait, I max both Dynamo Field and Tremor, only put one point into Storm Burst (the extra levels do little for me until the level 15 cooldown bonus), and have 12 points extra. Maybe the extra 12 goes into Shield Bash to carry me over to the higher level spells and have a low level points dump. So, that's max Healing Bot, Spider Mines, Gun Bot, Sledge Bot, Forcefield, Immobilization Copter, Dynamo Field, Tremor, one point in Storm Burst and 12 in Shield Bash.

I feel like gear is pretty easy here. Max block chance for a shield. Minion damage on all other gear, mana regen is next priority, and then HP/damage resistance after that. The only competition here is socketing, but I expect the priority order is the same. Minion damage when possible, mana regen next, etc.
 

JustKneller

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Torchlight 2 Screenshot 2024.12.11 - 21.33.13.05.jpg



Torchlight 2 Screenshot 2024.12.13 - 09.07.38.11.jpg

Garnet and her bulldog, Steiner. This is the full summoner with a 3/2 split on Focus and Vitality. There is an item I want and could get that requires over 200 Strength (and Vitality) and there's actually no way around this. However, I think I'm just going to rely on the wandering enchanter that can boost stats, should I find both him and this item. Every 25 Focus is +25 mana and +1 MP/sec regen. It doesn't seem like much but it adds up.

I have Healing Bot 5, Shield Bash 3, and Forcefield 3. This is all I will be building until level 14 when I can get my Spider Mines. As of now, Garnet is completely useless for damage, even Shield Bashing. Eiko had the same problem. I was expecting this. Shield Bash is mostly a poor man's mobility skill to me anyway. All I can do is feed Steiner fish and let him take point. I was hoping to find a summoning spell before now (e.g. Skeletons), but all I have are two Haste 1s and a Magical Implements 1. Totally useless to me and even Steiner. I'm saving them for when I have a transmuter and can hopefully turn them into something useful.

Gear is nothing to write home about. I'm prioritizing ice armor, though, as I'll need it in the next area.

I've cleared the Temple Steppes (it took some time) and now have access to three dungeons I can grind to get to level 14. Once I have the Spider Mines, I'll start on the bosses.
 
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JustKneller

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Torchlight 2 Screenshot 2024.12.14 - 13.03.30.79.jpg

Life is so much easier with Spider Mines. Steiner is behind Garnet, permanently turned into a warbeast. However, we're at the point where pets are insignificant for damage anyway, so I may put him back to his natural bulldog form. I have Healing Bot 7, Spider Mines 5, Shield Bash 7, and Forcefield 6. Next level will open up Gun Bot and Dynamo Field for me.

Gear-wise, I'm just ok. I have +86% minion damage. I have only 25% block chance, but I'm not worried. My Forcefields have been holding up pretty well. I have only 2/sec mana regeneration (but 7.5/sec when Heal Bot triggers) on top of the base 4%/sec (or 4.44/sec at my current mana). I was starting to question going 3/2 Focus/Vitality when I could have gone full Vitality, but now I don't regret it and wish I had more Focus. Spider Mines eat a lot of mana and my current supply can't keep up (without potions).

I'm in the Frosted Hills now, attempting to tie up Act I. However, I'm taking my time since I'm currently bottlenecked with the Spider Mines. I'm progressing through the local dungeons, but slowly. I'll hold off on the bosses until I'm managing the area better.
 

JustKneller

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Mini-update. I'm only level 25. It has been slow going for two reasons. First, I'm not getting any good drops from Frosted Hills or anything coming up from the blacksmith. I need more mana regen before I'll feel comfortable pressing on. The good news is that I found both the enchanter that can put sockets in an item, and a respawning boss creature that can drop a gem (well, eye) that gives my minions +10% damage. The bad news is that I have to cycle through a few dungeons for him to respawn and there's only a 15% chance for the drop. I'm basically just grinding the hills until my mana regen gets a good boost. Whatever eyes I get in the meantime are just gravy.
 

m7600

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I really tried to give the Torchlight games a chance. I really did. But they're just so repetitive and meaningless. They have an alienating effect on me as a player. It's difficult to describe, but I would say that I find their banality somehow repulsive on a purely instinctual level.

Does that make sense?
 

JustKneller

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Does that make sense?
Yes.

I definitely wouldn't praise them for their engaging gameplay. It's more that you set up your build and actual play is sort of a white noise meditative idle game. My goal is to get that character to level 100 (max level), which I honestly think won't be that hard. It's just a matter of grinding the way there at this point.
 

m7600

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actual play is sort of a white noise meditative idle game
See, that's something that I can respect. If someone tells me that they're Buddhist, and that they play this sort of repetitive, meaningless games for a spiritual reason (as a kind of "mental floss", if you will), then that's something that I can respect. Most definitely. But that tells me something positive about the player, not the game.
 
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