General (c)RPG Permadeath/Ironman Thread

[alice_ashpool]

Hello. This thread is to provide general information about "Ironman" runs, predominantly in cRPGs but also in other RPGs. Mostly for grouping together all different cRPGs that individuals who are interested in Ironman runs might be interested in attempting to complete.

What is a "true" ironman?
1 save, no reloading, you die you restart from the very beginning. True to the spirit.

How on earth can you play through (insert 100h long cRPG here) without dying once?
Short answer: because cRPGs lend themselves to complexity derived replayability so you end up learning both the mechanics and the encounters in great depth if you replay them multiple times.
Much shorter answer: metaknowledge

But why?
Skin in the game makes things more rewarding. For some. Also it's fun and rewarding to spend a lot of time getting really good at one game, rather than being average at many.

Games I know of that have some sort of steam achievement for a (pseudo) Ironman run:
Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous
Pillars of Eternity
Tyranny
Divinity Original Sin
Divinity Original Sin 2
Solasta: Crown of the Magister
Expeditions: Conquistador
Expeditions: Vikings
Expeditions: Rome
King Arthur: A Knight's Tale

Other (cRPG) games which do not have an achievement but that shouldn't stop you!
Baldurs Gate 1: Enhanced Edition, and Siege of Dragonspear
Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition and Throne of Bhaal
BG1, 2 and ToB OG versions
Icewind Dale 1
Icewind Dale 2
Temple of Elemental Evil
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Pillars of Eternity 2
Age of Decadence
Shadowrun Returns
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Shadowrun: Hong King
Underrail
Wasteland 2
Wasteland 3
Arcanum
Encased
Neverwinter Nights + Expansions
Neverwinter Nights 2
Knights of the Old Republic 1
Knights of the Old Republic 2
Dragon Age: Origins

Honourable Mention: Diablo 1 and 2

More (older) cRPGs courtesy of @m7600 :
Pool of Radiance
Curse of the Azure Bonds
Secret of the Silver Blades
Champions of Krynn
Pools of Darkness
Death Knights of Krynn
Gateway to the Savage Frontier
The Dark Queen of Krynn
Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace
Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager

Personal Showcase

Spoiler

Baldur's Gate 1 (SCS-Insane, Solo, Legacy of Bhaal Mode w/ Dark Moon Monk, Fighter-Cleric and Dragon Disciple and maybe more I can't remember)
Baldur's Gate 1, Siege of Dragonspear, Baldur's Gate 2 (not ToB) (SCS-Insane Solo Dark Moon Monk)
Icewind Dale 1 (Heart of Fury Solo, Sorceress)
Icewind Dale 1 (Normal Solo, Berserker)
Pathfinder: WotR (Core Demon, predominantly Eldritch Scoundrel)
Tyranny (Normal)
Solasta (Authentic)

Please post any which should be added to the lists above

 

[alice_ashpool]

A comparatively common sentiment about permadeath in cRPGs is the idea that you would have to be mad, or have too much time to indulge in such a thing. Permadeath in cRPGs seems to somehow have attracted ire as disrespectful to the players time, since if you die you have to go back to the beginning. I believe this stems from a misguided attribution to the concept of progress to a game; and the idea that obtaining the endpoint within a game is the fundamental purpose of a game. Yet when you finish a game you are right back where you started. Games are a leisure activity. They are not work, there is no finished commodity to be produced. The enjoyment is in the play - the journey. Executing a successful permadeath run of a non-randomised game is like executing perfect piece of choreography. A seamless and beautiful performance. All games are a "waste of time"; but no game is a waste of time. After the game is before the game. Time to re-roll.

 

[alice_ashpool]

Before I get to the stage of making a new thread, I have started Pillars of Eternity on Trial of Iron, Normal Difficulty, Expert Mode. IIRC I played this game up to the first town with the big tree, but having done Solasta and Tyranny Ironman pseudo-blind I have decided that (pseudo)-blind ironman makes you engage with the game so much more. Wish me luck.

 

[m7600]

Nice lists! I'd probably add some old school stuff, like Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Champions of Krynn, etc. Basically all of the Gold Box games. Then there's Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, and Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager. Also Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace. I think that these qualify as CRPGs.

 

[alice_ashpool]

Nice lists! I'd probably add some old school stuff, like Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Champions of Krynn, etc. Basically all of the Gold Box games. Then there's Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, and Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager. Also Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace. I think that these qualify as CRPGs.

That's a bit before my time so if you write them in a list I will put them in the OP!

 

[m7600]

That's a bit before my time so if you write them in a list I will put them in the OP!

They're actually before my time as well, though I started playing them a few years ago and they're a blast! They're super difficult and unforgiving, especially when compared to more modern games. I've never done an Ironman run on any of them though, but since they're turn-based, I don't think that such a feat would be impossible.

I'll write the list later!

 

[m7600]

Here's the old school list of the ones that I've played:

Pool of Radiance
Curse of the Azure Bonds
Secret of the Silver Blades
Champions of Krynn
Pools of Darkness
Death Knights of Krynn
Gateway to the Savage Frontier
The Dark Queen of Krynn
Spelljammer: Pirates of Realmspace
Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager

There's a few other titles, like the original Neverwinter Nights from 1991, and also Treasures of the Savage Frontier, but I haven't played those, so I'm not including them.

The most difficult of these games is definitely The Dark Queen of Krynn. Your very first battle is against several dragons. It's an almost guaranteed TPK. It's less difficult if you completed the other two games and you import your characters, because if you have the Footman's Dragonlance, then the dragons go down easily. Otherwise it's an insanely difficult fight. Of the runs that I did (edit: more like, tried to do) without importing characters, I've only won that fight once, and the only survivor was Charname with less than 5 HP, everyone else died.

EDIT: I forgot to add Death Knights of Krynn.

 

[Urdnot_Wrex]

So would you say no-reload runs are usually for games you already have experience with?
And how do you all handle things like metagaming, prebuffing?
I know @Antimatter for example often doesn't like to prebuff even in no-reload, but from what I've heard, Pathfinder: Kingmaker for example is practically unplayable without metaknowledge and heavy prebuffing.

I played BG:EE blind with minimal reload the first time and it was an exciting experience, because it made scouting so important and really raised the stakes. Afterwards, I tried no-reload (unmodded, core rules) and after 2 early fails reached the final fight with Sarevok, only to die there, but it was fun, I noticed this appraoch completely changes the way you think, plan and act, if every step can be your last. No more runs with tons of hoarded and unused consumables, for example.
I personally prefer the minimal reload over the no reload approach, though, because between work and family my gaming time is scarce and precious, and while I want to add an extra challenge to the way I play, I simply have neither the time nor the interest to repeat the same game often enough to achieve perfection, or I know I'd stick to it in an unhealthy way. Also, I love stories, and never knowing how a game ends would be a pity.
With NWN:EE the minimal reload approach also worked well for me for a first playthrough, even if the definition of "minimal" didn't mean "few", only "protagonist death reload only".
In some games, though, I have noticed the minimal reload approach can be a frustrating thing when playing for the first time. During a first playthrough, with unexpected dialogue choices, battle results, mistakes or other consequences, simply rolling with an undesired outcome can kill all the fun for the rest of the game, and especially in games with unfamiliar rules (Divinity: Original Sin), it can be helpful to experiment with strategies and replay some battles a few times to get the idea.

So I would say it's a mixed bag for me. I do want a challenge, I don't want to play story mode with an overpowered character, but having only one life, the probability that I will play the same game again within the next 2 or 3 years is very small, so I don't feel like starting over because something didn't go as expected.

 

[Cahir]

I don't think I'm cut for any ironman challenge. Firstly, because I play crpgs mostly for the story and rarely play the same game twice if I finished it. Second, I'm not really an expert tactician. I'm struggling with DOS2 on Tactician (although I think I get better at it) and had a hell of a hard time in WoTR (although this was very fun to deal with).

I do find putting some self-restrictions into the game immersive at times.

 

[alice_ashpool]

So would you say no-reload runs are usually for games you already have experience with?
And how do you all handle things like metagaming, prebuffing?
I know @Antimatter for example often doesn't like to prebuff even in no-reload, but from what I've heard, Pathfinder: Kingmaker for example is practically unplayable without metaknowledge and heavy prebuffing.

Obviously you can play in whatever way suits - but some games will kill you cheaply, some will kill you fairly, some will demand a lot of you in order than you avoid dying, some will demand much less. I did some partially blind stuff on very normal difficulties: Tyranny and Solasta recently and neither were all that difficult, but... others.

Anyway, I can see why people want a "normal difficulty that respects permadeath". I think Solasta did that well with their aping of a D&D campaign.

 

[Urdnot_Wrex]

Obviously you can play in whatever way suits - but some games will kill you cheaply, some will kill you fairly, some will demand a lot of you in order than you avoid dying, some will demand much less. I did some partially blind stuff on very normal difficulties: Tyranny and Solasta recently and neither were all that difficult, but... others.

Anyway, I can see why people want a "normal difficulty that respects permadeath". I think Solasta did that well with their aping of a D&D campaign.

Okay then let me rephrase the question to avoid misunderstanding. I didn't mean to compare or call any approach better, worse, more or less valid. It's a hobby after all.

I was simply curious if you generally (exceptions are possible) consider ironman/no-reload runs to be something to do, for you personally, when you either know the game by heart already or want to achieve it through multiple iterations, or if you tend to approach even new games that way.

 

[alice_ashpool]

I was simply curious if you generally (exceptions are possible) consider ironman/no-reload runs to be something to do, for you personally, when you either know the game by heart already or want to achieve it through multiple iterations, or if you tend to approach even new games that way.

The former.

 

[Antimatter]

A great idea about this thread. I hope at one point it'll be THE place online to report about your Ironman run and for others to discuss these reports.

I think the list of other cRPG games which do not have the Ironman achievement but essentially allow you to play that way can include Dragon Age games as well. 3 years ago I played through DA: Origins, and died only once during the quest sequence in the Brecilian Forest. Later, I found there might be creative ways to prevent the character's death there.

And of course, Diablo games should be included as well.

 

[Nimran]

I’ve been getting into doing runs in BG, but with the added ‘no raising’ rule. If a companion dies, he or she is dead for good. I believe I lost all of my recruitable frontline fighters in the first run, so I ended up with a party of clerics and wizards .

 

[Urdnot_Wrex]

So how do you guys feel about "protagonist death is game over" as in the Baldur's Gate series vs. "only total party wipe is game over"?
Is the latter the easy way out, in your opinion?

I've always thought it's a bit odd on a game's part that, in a world with magic and resurrection, you can revive 5 dead party members, but 5 living party members can't revive you, but there also seems to be the opinion that the stakes aren't high enough if one surviving party member is enough.
Frankly, I find it hard enough to survive with any party member in some games, but then, as I said, I have never been experienced, skilled or persistent enough to do a flawless run in any game.

 

[alice_ashpool]

So how do you guys feel about "protagonist death is game over" as in the Baldur's Gate series vs. "only total party wipe is game over"?
Is the latter the easy way out, in your opinion?

I've always thought it's a bit odd on a game's part that, in a world with magic and resurrection, you can revive 5 dead party members, but 5 living party members can't revive you, but there also seems to be the opinion that the stakes aren't high enough if one surviving party member is enough.
Frankly, I find it hard enough to survive with any party member in some games, but then, as I said, I have never been experienced, skilled or persistent enough to do a flawless run in any game.

So interestingly there was something written into the BG trilogy: that Bhaalspawn could not be resurrected because iirc their Bhaal essence is lost at the moment of death and they disintegrate. Bhaalspawn can technically be resurrected by a demi-god level power (think pocket plane events in ToB), but they are no longer bhaalspawn.

Other games like Kingmaker - I think they just followed the bg model without thinking it through. In WotR I guess you could say something about how [mass of plot spoiler info] means you also cannot be resurrected.

A part of me thinks the BG stuff about Bhaal was semi hand-waving for the way they implemented the game over state though.

 

[Urdnot_Wrex]

A part of me thinks the BG stuff about Bhaal was semi hand-waving for the way they implemented the game over state though.

I agree. I had always taken "Charname death is game over" for granted when it was still the only game series I knew, but the explanation with the Bhaal essence, which I learned about much later, seemed tacked on as an afterthought to me, not as a deliberate lore-based design choice when the game was made.

I mean, why can you resurrect Imoen then?
Okay, I learned even later that she had been added to the game as an afterthought at the last moment, but that's a different matter.

 

[Nimran]

So how do you guys feel about "protagonist death is game over" as in the Baldur's Gate series vs. "only total party wipe is game over"?
Is the latter the easy way out, in your opinion?

I've always thought it's a bit odd on a game's part that, in a world with magic and resurrection, you can revive 5 dead party members, but 5 living party members can't revive you, but there also seems to be the opinion that the stakes aren't high enough if one surviving party member is enough.
Frankly, I find it hard enough to survive with any party member in some games, but then, as I said, I have never been experienced, skilled or persistent enough to do a flawless run in any game.

To answer your question, no, it is not the easy way out. In my BG no-rez runs, party members are another important resource that I need to manage carefully, like my potions and scrolls, etc. If and when a party member dies, it is a potentially huge blow to your party’s survivability as a whole. Sure, you could replace them, but the other guy probably won’t have the same weapon proficiencies, they’ll have a conflicting alignment, etc. And, like I mentioned in my above post, mistakes can lead to a rather unbalanced party with only wizards. Yeesh!

I also don’t have a lot of experience with BG, or most games for that matter, as I have the attention span of a squirrel, and therefore like to jump from one new thing to the next. I often come back to an old game, but by then the habits I learned have long since faded into the background.

 

[Black Elk]

Haha I guess I posted in the Pathfinder WotR thread what I meant to post here in the general cRPG one. Whoops!

Anyhow, I think the Ironman concept is fun, especially for BG1. I was a little disappointed with the vanilla difficulty settings, as I remember some of the tactical mods being really quite impressive. But the Insane/Bhaal difficulty settings just seemed to make enemies impossible to hit while dealing nutso damage. I had to flee the assassins and run outside to get help from the guards, then spent like 10 minutes just trying to land a hit on a rat, before I decided it wasn't really for me. The only way I can rationalize the hardest difficulty setting is that they must have made it for an imported character who is already way over-levelled and kitted out with enchanted gear, cause otherwise I just can't see how it'd be entertaining at all. So in that respect the Ironman or no rez type game, that can work with Core, or other self enforced restrictions make a bit of sense.

What makes me trip out a bit is the question of why? Or rather, what is it about BG that makes it so I still enjoy replaying the games as much as I do? I mean, even though there is a fair bit of customization and options to personalize the aesthetics of the PCs or the companions, especially for the era, I think it's more down to the comfort food charm. In that same way that I can always re-watch Star Wars around X-mas time, I find that I can re-open the Gate like at least once a year and it's always enjoyable. It's almost seasonal that way for me, just like hanging strands of lights and putting out a tiny tree, I can always count on BG to lift my spirits.

I kind of wish the Enhancements in EE would have built-in a few more things though, of the sort available in EEKeeper. You know like allowing the PC to choose their base Avatar model, or unlocking all the colors for stuff like hair and and unarmored appearance and whatnot. I would love to have seen many more portraits included in the default package etc. There are a lot of QoL things I do appreciate, but then other stuff I kinda wonder about. Like couldn't they have put another gate at the Friendly Arm Inn so it'd be easier to enter from the North? Or how about making that byzantine maze of area transitions in the City of Baldur's Gate itself a bit easier to navigate from the World Map?

I'd also have enjoyed some of the new content to be spread out and distributed to more hidden areas rather than attached to the main hubs. Here's one example... right off the main coast way...

Spoiler: no cave

There are probably dozens of spots like that scattered throughout the game, where of course there was no content in the Vanilla BG game, but where some could have been added in the EE to make exploring those various nooks and crannies a bit more rewarding. Especially in the peripheral areas that perhaps remained largely empty in the originals, but where new monsters or NPCs or quests might have been situated more off the beaten path. That way it'd be less likely to overshadow the stuff that was there all along, which is what I feel happens right now with a lot of the EE stuff. They put a lot of that new stuff in places where it'd be impossible to miss, like Beregost or Nashkell or next to a major landmark, but I think it would have been better received if it was situated more in the cuts. Baeloth was maybe the lone exception in BG1 EE for showing up somewhere kinda interesting, with a bit of unexpected flare.

I think they also could have presented a Core game setting that would have mixed up the monster spawns, or added more enemies or stronger enemies to the set-piece battles, but without messing with their damage or AC and the like. Another thing I'd have enjoyed would have been more scripting for the Companions that accounts for dual classing and such. As I've discovered on my most recent playthrough, even the advanced AI script where you can go in and tweak the specific abilities with toggles still seems to get confused by that, much like the originals. Options to turn of permanent vFX from spells like barkskin and stoneskin would also have been cool. I know there are mods for everything, but curating that stuff into a standard package is what I'd look for in something like an Enhanced Edition. But yeah, it's all still highly entertaining for me, even after decades, so they definitely did something right when it was first being put together. Nothing quite scratches the itch like another trip to candlekeep lol

 

[alice_ashpool]

But the Insane/Bhaal difficulty settings just seemed to make enemies impossible to hit while dealing nutso damage. I had to flee the assassins and run outside to get help from the guards, then spent like 10 minutes just trying to land a hit on a rat, before I decided it wasn't really for me. The only way I can rationalize the hardest difficulty setting is that they must have made it for an imported character who is already way over-levelled and kitted out with enchanted gear, cause otherwise I just can't see how it'd be entertaining at all. So in that respect the Ironman or no rez type game, that can work with Core, or other self enforced restrictions make a bit of sense.

So yes, it was made for a 2nd run - however, due to some really fun quirks of BG1 it is possible to route through the game in a near risk-less way which a small group of people decided was a pretty fun and silly way to play. Because paralysis means auto-hits, Korax will mean you an destroy the basilisks even as a Mage (one of the few times you will find dual wielding daggers the optimal mage strategy!). Then you sneak your way through the game until you have wands and/or necklace of fireballs to take out everything you need to max XP. There are some dangerous moments: Dav, Boots of speed guy, the twin assassins, Sarevok and the Dukes fight. But Boots of Speed and Duke are the only ones where rng can truly screw you.