Good and evil working together?

OrlonKronsteen

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I posted similar threads back on the old Beamdog forums (specifically in reference to a paladin taking Edwin or Viconia in BG), but I thought I’d bring it up here.

What is your take on good characters (e.g., a paladin) taking evil characters in their party? This can be in the context of BG, table-top D&D, or other RP systems.
 

Nimran

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It depends on how effectively an evil character can hide their evilness from me. I’m a hopeless roleplayer. It doesn’t matter what their character sheet says, or what the developers spoil before the game comes out, they gotta prove it before I cast judgment.

For that reason, I believe Larian did Shadowheart (BG3) a disservice by telling everyone she’s a cleric of Shar, considering how hard her character tries to hide it in Act 1. She’s a good example of a well-written evil(?) character, not wearing their evilness on their sleeve all the time, similar to how Montaron and Xzar pretended to be good samaritans by giving you a healing potion as part of their introduction (that may be because I usually have high charisma, though). Obviously, you found out they were evil when you looked at their character sheets, but from a role playing perspective, you wouldn’t really know they’re evil until they start actually showing it (though I guess you can be a suspicious paladin who casts detect evil).
 

m7600

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What is your take on good characters (e.g., a paladin) taking evil characters in their party?
I like it when it's well done. I think that Pathfinder: Kingmaker did it really well. Octavia and Regongar are a couple, one of them is Chaotic Good and the other one is Chaotic Evil. Another example from the same game is the sisters Kalikke and Kanerah. One of the sisters is Chaotic good and the other one is Lawful Evil. Still another example from one of the DLCs for the same game, there's Maegar Varn and Cephal Lorentus. Again, one of them is Chaotic Good and the other one Lawful Evil.

What would be interesting to see is a Lawful Good & Chaotic Evil duo. I'm sure that Owlcat could make it work if they wanted to.
 
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m7600

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(specifically in reference to a paladin taking Edwin or Viconia in BG),
Regarding this part of your comment, paladins are necessarily Lawful Good in BG2 if I recall. I can see how a paladin Charname could have Edwin in the same team. Edwin is Lawful Evil. So, even though Charname and Edwin have opposite morals, they agree that Lawfulness is important. They have at least that much in common.

As for Viconia, that's tougher in the context of BG2. Keldorn will conflict with her if they're both in the party. But maybe your Lawful Good Charname pally can be more tolerant than Keldorn. If not, then you can roll a Neutral Good character of another class. Since Viconia is Neutral Evil, what your Charname and her will have in common is that both of them are Neutral in regards to the Lawful/Chaotic axis, so they have something important in common, even though they have opposite morals when it comes to Good vs Evil.
 

Antimatter

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I think I'd mention the concept of forgiveness. It's one of the core aspects of being "good". That's the reason I don't approve of "lawful stupid" behavior when a good character sees a drow and wants to burn them. I always want to ask that character a question: why didn't you think about forgiveness and giving a chance? For the actual examples, you don't need to search that far. Viconia, if you talk to her over the course of BG2 events in an appropriate manner, will turn into a Neutral alignment. Same with even Sarevok. By not giving these NPCs a chance, a lawful stupid character (and thus the player playing them) would just 1) kill those who can redeem themselves 2) miss on character development, THE most interesting aspect of it all.

Sometimes, though, you as the player have enough evidence NOT to forgive. I would mention Loghain from Dragon Age: Origins. There, after the Landsmeet, you have a few options for deciding his fate. I have never spared him there, because from my point, the way he handled King Cailan and those army troops who were essentially massacred by the Darkspawn, is sufficient evidence not to give him another chance. Also, I admit, I support my best friend (or even a husbando) Alistair there.

That is why I'm so hesitant to condemn Shadowheart from BG3 just yet and don't consider her evil, yet. What I actually think is that she's not evil, she was tricked into serving Shar, and if I just refuse to cooperate because "evil will not pass", I will never see her character development.

Pathfinder: WotR showed me Daeran and Wenduag. One can easily say that Wenduag has no place in a good party. Same as Jaethal in Kingmaker maybe. But I genuinely found all 3 of them among best, in my opinion, written NPCs in those Pathfinder games. Kingmaker allows you to change Jaethal's views, and the prologue in WotR is not enough to condemn Wenduag and essentially carry out the death sentence. Daeran's story has a twist, the one you'll never find out if you refuse to cooperate with an evil oracle.

About the usual subject that comes up when discussing this topic, vampires. I would say that Serana from Skyrim and Fennorian from The Elder Scrolls Online are sufficient evidence that "vampire = evil" would be a very frenetic line of thought. Actually, ESO has the whole House Ravenwatch. It's led by Count Verandis Ravenwatch, an Altmer pureblood vampire, who had been turned directly by Molag Bal. Members of the house live by a code put in place by Count Verandis. It involves concepts of honor and vigilance, noble spirit and restraint. Their primary goal is to use their powers with responsibility, to help others. They are only allowed to feed on willing servants, never to excess, or on outlaws like bandits or cultists. They regularly train to keep their vampiric urge to kill in control.
 

Skatan

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Alright, as I see it this question can't be answered without addressing the alignment system as such. I am probably a minority, but I have a very strong love/hate relationship with it. I love it for it's simplicity and the black and white choice you do when choosing the alignment. I really dislike the way all games implement it (I have never played PnP) and how it doesn't affect your character as it should do.

In my very personal opinion, the alignment system should lock you out of choices that a character that is lawful good would never even contemplate. That a LG paladin following a strict moral code as well as tenets of the order would even contemplate teaming up with evil characters is just a no-go in my humble opinion. But actually playing games means that having choices is usually more fun, thus having a game filter your possible answers to questions or dialogues aren't very fun for a player, thus they are there for you to choose as you want and then having that choice impact your alignment (as for example in Pathfinder Kingmaker or similar). Hence why I am not a fan of how it tends to be implemented in games where the choices you make as a player for your character influence the characters alignment when really it should be the opposite.

So depending on the character, its code or morals, I find it hard sticking to the alignment system and still having RP reasons to ally with whatever or whoever I as a player want to ally with. So I kinda just said to myself to disregard it and focus on what's fun, stick with a general concept for a character and not really care so much about alignment. It's just more enjoyment that way, to have more choices and options despite it being "against" my own opinion about how it "should" be if you get what I mean.

As always when it comes to these kind of topics I tend to take great care emphasizing that these are all my very personal opinions and everyone is free to have their own.
 

BelgarathMTH

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I think I'd mention the concept of forgiveness. It's one of the core aspects of being "good". That's the reason I don't approve of "lawful stupid" behavior when a good character sees a drow and wants to burn them. I always want to ask that character a question: why didn't you think about forgiveness and giving a chance? For the actual examples, you don't need to search that far. Viconia, if you talk to her over the course of BG2 events in an appropriate manner, will turn into a Neutral alignment. Same with even Sarevok. By not giving these NPCs a chance, a lawful stupid character (and thus the player playing them) would just 1) kill those who can redeem themselves 2) miss on character development, THE most interesting aspect of it all.

Sometimes, though, you as the player have enough evidence NOT to forgive. I would mention Loghain from Dragon Age: Origins. There, after the Landsmeet, you have a few options for deciding his fate. I have never spared him there, because from my point, the way he handled King Cailan and those army troops who were essentially massacred by the Darkspawn, is sufficient evidence not to give him another chance. Also, I admit, I support my best friend (or even a husbando) Alistair there.

That is why I'm so hesitant to condemn Shadowheart from BG3 just yet and don't consider her evil, yet. What I actually think is that she's not evil, she was tricked into serving Shar, and if I just refuse to cooperate because "evil will not pass", I will never see her character development.

Pathfinder: WotR showed me Daeran and Wenduag. One can easily say that Wenduag has no place in a good party. Same as Jaethal in Kingmaker maybe. But I genuinely found all 3 of them among best, in my opinion, written NPCs in those Pathfinder games. Kingmaker allows you to change Jaethal's views, and the prologue in WotR is not enough to condemn Wenduag and essentially carry out the death sentence. Daeran's story has a twist, the one you'll never find out if you refuse to cooperate with an evil oracle.

About the usual subject that comes up when discussing this topic, vampires. I would say that Serana from Skyrim and Fennorian from The Elder Scrolls Online are sufficient evidence that "vampire = evil" would be a very frenetic line of thought. Actually, ESO has the whole House Ravenwatch. It's led by Count Verandis Ravenwatch, an Altmer pureblood vampire, who had been turned directly by Molag Bal. Members of the house live by a code put in place by Count Verandis. It involves concepts of honor and vigilance, noble spirit and restraint. Their primary goal is to use their powers with responsibility, to help others. They are only allowed to feed on willing servants, never to excess, or on outlaws like bandits or cultists. They regularly train to keep their vampiric urge to kill in control.
Yours and @Urdnot_Wrex 's insightful posts may convince me to give Shadowheart a chance one day. The statement that struck me in your post was "...may have been tricked into serving Shar..."

That struck me because I sometimes like to RP a cleric of Sharess, the Goddess of Cats and Sensual Pleasure. That's mostly because of the cats element - I imagine my love of cats and of caring for them might enable me to win Sharess' favor and attention, since they're her spirit animal and part of her portfolio. But also, I've done some reading about Sharess and other people's takes on her from Forgotten Realms discussion sites, and a lot of people consider the way many players play her as "the Goddess of Sex" to be a gross oversimplification of her portfolio, and an unfair and shallow stereotype. "Sensual pleasure" isn't just sex, but also enjoyment of good food and drink, various creature comforts, and even art and music appreciation. Anyone who loves cats knows they are sensual beasts who live for good food and creature comfort.

The point here is that Sharess was tricked by Shar into becoming a subservient deity to Shar during one historical period of Forgotten Realms history. So, I have a potential RP connection to someone who was also tricked that way. As a lawful or neutral good cleric, or perhaps even as a paladin who believes in giving people every chance at redemption from past mistakes, I would be out to help Shadowheart get away from the evil Goddess of Darkness, if she did in fact desire such redemption. Of course, I'd have to give her a chance in my party to ever get that far with her character development. And I'd have to trust the people writing her to give me that option.

We'll see. I guess time will tell. :)
 

Xzarloxara

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About the usual subject that comes up when discussing this topic, vampires. I would say that Serana from Skyrim and Fennorian from The Elder Scrolls Online are sufficient evidence that "vampire = evil" would be a very frenetic line of thought. Actually, ESO has the whole House Ravenwatch. It's led by Count Verandis Ravenwatch, an Altmer pureblood vampire, who had been turned directly by Molag Bal. Members of the house live by a code put in place by Count Verandis. It involves concepts of honor and vigilance, noble spirit and restraint. Their primary goal is to use their powers with responsibility, to help others. They are only allowed to feed on willing servants, never to excess, or on outlaws like bandits or cultists. They regularly train to keep their vampiric urge to kill in control.
Well, in all honesty, that is a different universe with different lore. In D&D, all vampires are supposed to be chaotic evil because of the corrupting nature of their condition or the negative energy plane or whatever. I read as much in the 2e monster manual.

Still, I completely agree with the rest of what you said, and would even take things one step further by saying that a non Lawful-Stupid paladin would not want to simply kill those who he believes are receptive to his influence, even if they are currently evil. Killing people should be a last resort to a paladin. It would be far better to try to reform someone than to simply kill them. Seriously... I would imagine a paladin could get into serious trouble simply killing everyone who commits evil acts they meet. Suppose they run into an orphaned child who turned to thievery to survive: no sane paladin would kill that orphan because they are a thief. A sane paladin would try to help them and set them on the right path. I would imagine a good paladin needs to keep in mind that mercy is very important. After all, no one is a paragon of virtue, no matter how hard they try, and a paladin cannot just kill everyone who is not a paragon (aka practically everyone). It is a far greater good to convert someone to goodness than to simply kill evil.

In some cases, I can see simply killing evil, however. Primal evils, such as demons, probably shouldn't get much mercy... ever.
 

O_Bruce

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Something here sparked my curiosity. Based on a little tidbit of information here, how can one character be "tricked" into worshipping the evil deity, exactly? And wouldn't said deity be able to recognize that the faith isn't genuine, especially when it came to allocating power to a priest? And if deities in Forgotten Realms can be simply tricked like that, and aren't morally superior to mortals in any capacity, then what's the point of even worshipping a deity in a such a fantasy world?
 

BelgarathMTH

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Something here sparked my curiosity. Based on a little tidbit of information here, how can one character be "tricked" into worshipping the evil deity, exactly? And wouldn't said deity be able to recognize that the faith isn't genuine, especially when it came to allocating power to a priest? And if deities in Forgotten Realms can be simply tricked like that, and aren't morally superior to mortals in any capacity, then what's the point of even worshipping a deity in a such a fantasy world?
That's a cool question. I can't answer as to the details of divine trickery, but I would assume it has something to do either an evil deity posing as something else, perhaps faking benign intent and setting up a slippery slope of some kind, or else offering a cunningly worded magically binding contract, or a clever misrepresentation of what they're actually up to. There's probably a source book out there somewhere that tells the story of how Sharess fell under Shar's dominion. I'll have to look for that later, because I'm curious, too.

This post is because I have an opinion about the point of worship in Forgotten Realms. First, the obvious - the deity grants powerful spells to favored followers. That would be reason enough to many people.

Secondly, one would worship because one believes in the values of the deity's portfolio. If I believe in justice, truth, protecting the innocent, and that sort of thing, I would naturally be drawn to churches of Tyr and Torm, because I'd want to be part of the community that supports and defends those values. If what I care most about is working the land and farming, I'd naturally worship Chauntea. If my highest values were new beginnings, redemption, and light, Lathander represents those things. I could go on, but you probably get the idea. As the deity's power grows through the worship of its followers, so are the values of the portfolio supposed to be magnified.

Thirdly, in Forgotten Realms lore, everyone needs a deity to "sponsor" them for a pleasing afterlife, so they don't wind up in the Wall of the Faithless. I find that whole spiel very problematic, just like ideas about Heaven and Hell motivating people in real life religion, but in the Forgotten Relams setting, afterlife does matter very much to people.

Sometimes it baffles me though, why anyone would worship Shar, who desires the destruction of existence. I can only imagine that her followers are nihilists who believe that life as we know it is too painful, and not existing is better than existing, because the pain and suffering of life far outweigh any pleasure or joy from it. Maybe they're like goth or emo people who are drawn irresistibly to death, with the thoughts and images that go with it, perhaps without even knowing why, exactly they feel that way?

I can think of the Twilight's Hammer from WoW as a related example of evil cult thinking. They wanted to help Deathwing destroy Azeroth. To me, that's a variation on the theme of death cult worship in general, in another game.

Of course, we could take the tack that we just need evil cults and deities to set up conflict in stories, and they have no deeper meaning behind them than to give the heroes something to fight. But I do think that the more relatable and understandable the villains of a story, the better is the quality of the story.

EDIT: All I can turn up from a quick Google search is that Sharess was tempted for a time by "the darker side of pleasure", and fell to Shar that way. Apparently it brought her too close to Shar's portfolio, such that Shar was able to dominate her and try to subsume her divine essence. She was rescued by Sune, and now opposes Shar and other evil deities vehemently along with the good deities. Shar holds a grudge against her for this.

So, I guess part of the answer to "how do evil deities trick a person" would have to do with temptation. Pretty classic "deal with the devil" type stuff, and "if you go to bed with the devil, sooner or later you're going to have to..." well, you know.
 
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O_Bruce

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When you are living in a universe where you can learn to cast spells without help from deity the first argument falls flat. The second reason makes more sense, although you don't need to worship a deity to live certain principles. The third reason is basically blackmail - either you worship a deity or your afterlife would be miserable.

Just for context, if there's a one in a million chance I'll ever make my own fantasy webcomic or something along those lines, I'd like to come up with a good reason for people to worship deities, hence my curiosity on the matter.
 

BelgarathMTH

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When you are living in a universe where you can learn to cast spells without help from deity the first argument falls flat. The second reason makes more sense, although you don't need to worship a deity to live certain principles. The third reason is basically blackmail - either you worship a deity or your afterlife would be miserable.

Just for context, if there's a one in a million chance I'll ever make my own fantasy webcomic or something along those lines, I'd like to come up with a good reason for people to worship deities, hence my curiosity on the matter.
On the first thing, if you mean that the existence of arcane magic should make divine magic less appealing to people, I would point out that arcane spells can't heal and raise the dead. I find that an important distinction, and a good reason why people might pray for spells from a deity who could give them the power to heal their loved ones, or were even just motivated by wanting to help people and make the world better.

I would agree that the other reasons I offered are shallow and don't hold up under careful scrutiny, but I have similar objections to real life religion. I just remind myself that we're talking about a fantasy setting, not real life. The end goal is to just have fun imagining a world where magic is real, and we can have the power to fight monsters and be heroes.
 

m7600

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Thirdly, in Forgotten Realms lore, everyone needs a deity to "sponsor" them for a pleasing afterlife, so they don't wind up in the Wall of the Faithless. I find that whole spiel very problematic, just like ideas about Heaven and Hell motivating people in real life religion, but in the Forgotten Relams setting, afterlife does matter very much to people.
I've never liked this aspect of the Forgotten Realms, even though I love the setting in general. I've always modified it so that when a character dies, they go to the plane of their alignment, automatically. No need to make petitions to any deity or deity-like power. So, for example, Edwin would end up in Baator, while Minsc would end up in Arborea.

True Neutrals end up in Sigil as far as I'm concerned : )

Sometimes it baffles me though, why anyone would worship Shar, who desires the destruction of existence. I can only imagine that her followers are nihilists who believe that life as we know it is too painful, and not existing is better than existing, because the pain and suffering of life far outweigh any pleasure or joy from it. Maybe they're like goth or emo people who are drawn irresistibly to death, with the thoughts and images that go with it, perhaps without even knowing why, exactly they feel that way?

In Viconia's case, I can see why worshipping Shar would be better than worshipping Lolth.
 

Zaxares

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Something here sparked my curiosity. Based on a little tidbit of information here, how can one character be "tricked" into worshipping the evil deity, exactly? And wouldn't said deity be able to recognize that the faith isn't genuine, especially when it came to allocating power to a priest? And if deities in Forgotten Realms can be simply tricked like that, and aren't morally superior to mortals in any capacity, then what's the point of even worshipping a deity in a such a fantasy world?
The NWN module "Pirates of the Sword Coast" actually deals with this topic. During the course of the adventure, you land on an island ruled by a sect of Umberlee priestesses, but they have been deliberately raised and taught in a way that omits all of Umberlee's more unpleasant aspects and teachings. Under 3.X rules at least, divine energy derived from worship even from hoodwinked worshippers still flows to the deity behind the scheme, even if the deity the worshippers are praying to is a false persona. (For example, say a small church is duped into worshipping Rahs, supposedly a new Goddess of Secrets, but in reality is actually just Shar behind a facade. The prayers of Rahs' faithful would still go to Shar and empower her, despite the worshippers not knowing the true nature of who is granting their prayers.)

As for deities themselves being tricked, I know that in the Forgotten Realms at least, some of the more powerful deities will actually sponsor promising proto-deities on their way to full godhood. (I forget her name, but one of the deities frequently mentioned in Siege of Dragonspear is one such deity, a demigoddess of war and strategy who was sponsored by Tyr, I believe.) Assuming that the lesser deity has some sort of divine energy connection to their patron, it's perhaps not entirely out of the question that a lesser deity could be tricked into such an arrangement.
 
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