Philosophical Musings: A Forum Game

m7600

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Agree. I think it's false as well.

Chess is quite simple and objective.
Disagree. Chess is incredibly complicated, and at the highest levels it involves a lot of subjectivity, as in, subterfuge, mind games, etc. Hell, probably even performance enhancing drugs.

Reality is relative
I don't think so. Reality is absolute. That's one of my premises for now. I might need to clarify it a bit more, though.

It's why both terms share most of the same letters.
No, that's a False Cause Fallacy, in my eyes. The word "reality" and the word "relative" have different etymologies. The word "reality" has more similarities with the word "royalty". And the word "realism" has more in common with "royalism" than with "relativism".

Of course, it would share fewer letters if we were talking in Spanish (realidad vs. relativo)
No, not quite. In Spanish, the word "real" (as in the English "real) has more in common with the word "real" (as in the English "royal") than with the word "relativismo" (as in the English "relativism").

Furthermore, in Spanish, the word "realismo" has two English meanings: 1) "Realism", and 2) "Royalism".

Spanish, however, is not the only language spoken in the Americas. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of languages being spoken from Alaska to Argentina on a daily basis. And that's not even considering the dialects. People bond a lot through dialects. For example, you immediately recognize a Texan by his tone, and by his choice of words. Same goes for the person from Alabama. They don't talk like Texas folk, at least not exactly, but they both sound like "Southerners" of the United States.
 

JustKneller

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Disagree. Chess is incredibly complicated, and at the highest levels it involves a lot of subjectivity, as in, subterfuge, mind games, etc. Hell, probably even performance enhancing drugs.
Chess gets complicated once people get involved, but the premise is quite simple. A minute to learn, a lifetime to master, right? Here were are 20,000 years into being humans with culture and we're still disagreeing on reality.

No, that's a False Cause Fallacy, in my eyes.
It also can be categorized as being a little bit of a smart-ass. :p

Reality is absolute.
I'm going to have to be hypocritical here. Hypocritical because I have a friend who gets really annoyed when I say, "It is what it is," which I say a lot. I would have to defer to Alan Watts here, who is likely relating concepts originating from someone far more serious, but anyway...he has one talk that essentially states that things only exist in relation to the things around it. A thing is a chair because it's not the table. A pencil is a pencil because it's not the paper. He explained this much better than what I'm doing, but if reality is made of things that exist, but things that exist do so relative to other things, how is reality not relative? I mean, reality is absolute in that something is certainly real, but what that something actually is is something that's up for debate.

No, not quite.
Well, I'm clearly rusty on my Spanish. It has been a while, that's for sure. I should have picked Esperanto or something. Nobody really speaks Esperanto. :D
 

m7600

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things only exist in relation to the things around it.
I disagree. To paraphrase a leading philosopher from Iowa actively working today: "An ordinary object, such as a table, exists in two ways: in itself and in relation to other objects, subjects, etc. In itself, it exists independently. In relation to others, it exists in a dependent way. In the sociological sphere, this correlates with the notions of independent and dependent variables."

A thing is a chair because it's not the table.
No, that's a False Cause Fallacy again. That's not the reason why it's a chair. It's a chair because it's an ordinary object whose maker intended to make a chair, as a piece of furniture that one may sit on.

A pencil is a pencil because it's not the paper.
Again, that's a False Cause Fallacy. A pencil is a pencil because it's an ordinary object whose maker intended to make a pencil, a piece of wood with some stuff inside (i.e., carbon) for writing, drawing, taking notes, etc.

He explained this much better than what I'm doing,
I would sure hope so, you're doing a terrible job at that. Please don't get offended, I mean that as an objective fact.

if reality is made of things that exist, but things that exist do so relative to other things, how is reality not relative?
Well, there's your problem: your antecedent is true (reality is made of things that exist), while your consequent is false (things that exist do so relative to other things). This being so, your conditional statement is false. Check out the truth table for conditional statements, dude:

Conditional-300x216.png


reality is absolute in that something is certainly real, but what that something actually is is something that's up for debate.
No, it isn't. The scientific community has already decided what that is. It's not up for debate.


Well, I'm clearly rusty on my Spanish. It has been a while, that's for sure. I should have picked Esperanto or something. Nobody really speaks Esperanto. :D
Esperanto is a beautiful but impractical idea.
 
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Black Elk

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1) Latin America is not a continent. It's a group of people that speak a language that evolved from Medieval Latin. That's why it includes Spanish (i.e., Argentina), Portuguese (i.e., Brazil), and French (i.e., French Guiana). The country of Suriname, formerly the Dutch Guiana, is not part of Latin America, since their official language is Dutch. The French part of Canada, on the other hand, would indeed be part of Latin America, since they speak French, and French evolved from Latin. To speak of "Latin America" as if it were a region is like talking about "Anglo-Saxon America" as a region, it kinda makes no sense. Agree or disagree?

I agree, Latin America is not a continent, although I'm not sure it makes sense to include within Latin America certain regions of the Francophone. Areas which are clearly still in the 'Americas' and have that cultural or linguistic pedigree, but may nevertheless cause a headscratcher if bundled up with the others, say Quebec in Canada. Or like if it was it was considered Spanish or French speaking historically, but then later conquered and absorbed into the Anglophone, like say Acadia or New Orleans in the United States. Anything acquired during the Mexican Session would probably be excluded there. Like I'm not sure we could get away with calling California or New Mexico part of Latin America, although it clearly was at one point. Like just look at all the City names right hehe. I'm not super particular there. I mean technically to be a City it needs a Cathedral, cause that's the dictionary definition of the term, but I'm not sure that holds much water these days. Other points of confusion, similar to the Suriname Dutch Guiana thing, would be what to do with the Caribbean edge cases... I would consider for example that Puerto Rico is for sure part of Latin America, whereas the US Virgin Islands might be pushing it, even though they're part of the same island chain, I guess just cause the latter was somehow Denmark until Wilson bought it in 1917. A fear of German Uboats, I suppose it must have made sense. Similarly the Dominican Republic seems very much Latin America to me, like DR gets included no contest, whereas Haiti maybe has a different set of associations, despite both being on the island of Hispaniola. I worked with a gal from Belize, who definitely considered herself both Latin as well as Afro-Caribbean and Central American, would have called it home. Despite the Brits stubbornly holding on by the fingernails there for quite a while, and probably trying to dispute that one for as long as possible lol.

2) Central America, if it exists, is a region, not a continent. The only continents of the Americas are: North America and South America. Those are the continents. Everything else is just regions and countries and, in some cases, colonies (French Guiana, for example). Agree or disagree?

Agree. Trying to redefine Continent to mean something other than the typical continent seems problematic. I can see room for splitting hairs if it's like plate-tectonics or sub-continents, or if someone really needs it to be Eurasia instead of Europe and Asia, stuff like that, but generally what I got in grade school is that there are only 7 (or maybe 8) and Central America is just folded into North America under that scheme.

3) Mexico is physically located in the continent of North America. It is therefore part of North America, in the same sense that Canada and the United States are. Agree or disagree?

Agree. Mexico is located within North America, with the direct flights and everything.

4) Central America, together with the Caribbean, is physically, geographically, part of North America. After all, Mexico is indeed part of North America in that sense, so why would the other countries in Central America be an exception? Agree or disagree?

Agree. It'd be kinda curious and nonsensical to say that for example Panama, is not part of either North or South America, regardless of what the trade agreements say, but somehow both and none, and also super central to boot. Like lets argue about it with Colombia, but still. Also half the time that canal is used as the quickie dividing line. I think it's useful more for like cultural anthropologists than practical cartographers, cause it's a bit all over the map.

Cheers 🍻,
-m.

P.S.: How's everyone liking the game so far? Makes no sense to play it (or even read it) if you're not having fun.

So far so good! Fun is fun!
 

m7600

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Very insightful and wise reply, @Black Elk. Not sure if I agree wholeheartedly, though. In your last reply, you said a lot of stuff that went way, way over my head.

@JustKneller What do you make of @Black Elk 's reply? Do you agree with him, and if so, on what specific accounts?
 
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m7600

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I mean technically to be a City it needs a Cathedral, cause that's the dictionary definition of the term,
Are you sure about this? I would argue that you're wrong here. The Romans and the ancient Greeks had cities, but no Cathedrals. Aren't Cathedrals a Christian thing?
 

JustKneller

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The Romans and the ancient Greeks had cities, but no Cathedrals. Aren't Cathedrals a Christian thing?
The Romans did, but I don't think the Greeks did. The Romans created Catholicism and Constantine was a huge fan (I believe he made it Rome's official religion and put up the first cathedral).

@JustKneller What do you make of @Black Elk 's reply? Do you agree with him, and if so, on what specific accounts?
Jeez, I'm having trouble keeping up at this point. But, I definitely disagree on #4. It's weird, but the Caribbean is divvied up among North and South America.
 

m7600

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I don't think the Greeks did.
But the Greeks had cities. So did the Egyptians. So did the Chinese. And none of them had Cathedrals.

The Romans created Catholicism
Did they? My Catholicism lore is really low. Actually, my Christianism lore in general is really low.

Jeez, I'm having trouble keeping up at this point.
Come on man, just soldier through it (and by that I mean, just keep up with us. Don't quit).
 

m7600

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what I got in grade school is that there are only 7 (or maybe 8) and Central America is just folded into North America under that scheme.
Ok so speaking of continents, here's what I believe (I'm not saying I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, this is just what I believe at the present moment): there are 7 continents, and those are:

1) Antarctica
2) South America
3) North America
4) Europe
5) Africa
6) Asia
7) Oceania

I don't think that Australia is a continent. The continent in that region is Oceania, and Australia is a country in the continent of Oceania.

There's recent scientific talk of New Zealand not being in the continent of Oceania. It's located in its own continent, and it's almost entirely underwater. I don't dispute the actual plate tectonics there, but I'm not sure that I would say that a sunken continent is a continent. I would say that it isn't. But I might be wrong about that. What do you folks think?
 

JustKneller

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But the Greeks had cities. So did the Egyptians. So did the Chinese. And none of them had Cathedrals.
Well, the Greeks and Egyptians had their heyday before Jesus was born, so it's hard to build a cathedral for a guy that didn't exist yet. Greeks eventually built Cathedrals (i.e. the Greek Orthodox church) once they were told how great Jesus was until they believed it. China has cathedrals, but those didn't pop up until, I dunno, at least 1000 years later.

Did they? My Catholicism lore is really low. Actually, my Christianism lore in general is really low.
They sure did. Prior to that, they were dealing with the Christians (that they didn't feed to lions), Jewish people, and their own good ol' fashioned pagans. It was a right mess to rule over so they created the Catholic church. I believe "Catholic" stems from some Latin word for "universal" or something like that. But, that's why the Bible is so historically inaccurate (at least one of the reasons). Jesus was actually a summer baby, but they moved his birthday to December to merge it with some pagan winter festival. Eve didn't originally eat an apple, it was a quince, but they changed it because who the hell eats quinces anymore. They did a lot of creative edits to mash it all up. Think of it as Rashomon in reverse. Rather than everyone having a different story, they made sure everyone told the same story.
 

Black Elk

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Hehe way too much flavor and consideration for my random aside about what actually constitutes a city. Like as opposed to just any other random population center of sufficient scale, by another name. Of course everyone had those too and the Greeks as well, but they called their version a Polis. A metropolis μητρόπολις is a "mother" city, or also the main polis in a chain within a region. Istanbul is just istanpolis, meaning up to the polis. Similar to how we might say I'm headed to the City to mean the main one, in whatever shared region, say New York or San Francisco, from somewhere nearby. Constantine's polis getting the rebrand was a bit of a power play there, though I suppose they did transplant many Romans in the process. It wasn't like a full on plantation though really. I was just taking a slide there at how say Oxford can be a city, as opposed to a Town or Village or whatever other sort of thing. Also how those sorts of jurisdictions were used to carve the places up, especially if recently conquered or settled or filibustered into the Union or under whatever scheme. I think North America as a region is a highly politicized sort of subject, to be sure hehe. Like where there are powerful and vested interests trying to define/redefine it to be specifically exclusionary at different points and for different reasons. I find it fascinating for example, that having overrun Mexico, the US opted not to annex the whole place, but instead drew the lines in such a way to take only the more sparsely populated regions (by settlers I mean), with the states reason being that they didn't want to extend citizenship in a way that might jeopardize their 'Indian removal' policies. Also the whole pressure cooker campaign at the dawn of the modern media newpaper era, where Citizen Kane wanted to make sure that certain views about the Spanish speaking parts of the western hemisphere would predominate, or that the region would be understood in a certain way, to help justify what all was going down back then politically. So we get those hold overs from yesteryear that sink into the language and have these knock on effects for how the maps get labelled. If we're on the RISK board, then we know Central America is part of the 5 armies that are Collected for North America, but gotta watch out for a wild trade I suppose. I mean it could come from anywhere! hehe
 

m7600

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the Greeks as well, but they called their version a Polis.
The Latin word "Civitas", from which the English word "city" comes from, is a translation of the ancient Greek word "Polis". So what's your point?
A metropolis μητρόπολις is a "mother" city, or also the main polis in a chain within a region. Istanbul is just istanpolis, meaning up to the polis. Similar to how we might say I'm headed to the City to mean the main one, in whatever shared region, say New York or San Francisco, from somewhere nearby. Constantine's polis getting the rebrand was a bit of a power play there, though I suppose they did transplant many Romans in the process. It wasn't like a full on plantation though really. I was just taking a slide there at how say Oxford can be a city, as opposed to a Town or Village or whatever other sort of thing.
I'm not buying it. I'm not even sure what you mean here. @JustKneller , a little help please?

Like where there are powerful and vested interests trying to define/redefine it to be specifically exclusionary at different points and for different reasons.
Well... yeah? So what's your point?

So we get those hold overs from yesteryear that sink into the language and have these knock on effects for how the maps get labelled.
It's a nice theory, I like from an aesthetic point of view, but that's it. I don't think that it's a true theory, like, it's not a scientific theory. It's not sociology. Again @JustKneller , help me out here, you said that you used to teach sociology. Who is right on this specific point, @Black Elk or me? Or both? Or none?

If we're on the RISK board, then we know Central America is part of the 5 armies that are Collected for North America, but gotta watch out for a wild trade I suppose. I mean it could come from anywhere! hehe
And there you went off on a tangent. At least, that's how I feel about that.
 

JustKneller

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I don't know what that is. I don't know the reference, and I'm too lazy to look it up. Can you explain it to me, in simple terms?
I think you would enjoy the movie. It's essentially about the story of the murder of a samurai as told by various witnesses. Nobody has the same story.

I'm not buying it. I'm not even sure what you mean here. @JustKneller , a little help please?
I think Black Elk is way above my pay grade here.
 

Black Elk

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I will take 0 for 2 then I guess lol. It was clearly tangential and a riff. The walled off fortified cathedral-town is the sense from Middle English I as I recall. It was not the main point, but I may have lost the point along the way. Good game! hehe
 
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