The Baldur's Gate Saga is my Moby Dick 🐳 (Long post and spoilers, sorry!)

[JustKneller]

TLDR: How can I finish a full saga run of this game?

I've had this game for a very long time. I think it might actually have been my first ever RPG on PC (I played a lot of console JRPGs before this). I have started more saga runs than I could possibly remember and probably have experimented with every race/class combination. One thing that all of these runs have in common is that I have NEVER FINISHED THIS GAME! And, I really want to, just once, so that I can say that I did. I'm currently working through an Icewind Dale challenge run and want to tackle (yet again) BG next. But I need some kind of strategy, method, or new approach, so I don't flake out on the run.

I've played (and finished) the other IE games (Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) but just can't seem to get over the hump with this one. This is how I see things. IE games based on 2e D&D are like a pizza. Planescape: Torment is like the signature design gourmet chorizo, onion, and goat cheese pizza that isn't terribly well made, but the flavors are amazing. Icewind Dale is like a cheese pizza, but probably the best made pizza you have ever had. It's a very dependable choice for when you want a satisifying pizza, without worrying about toppings sending the flavor off in a weird direction. Baldur's Gate is like a 42-inch everything pizza. And, by everything, I mean shit that doesn't even belong on a pizza like parsnips, bananas, and scrambled eggs. It's not well made, doesn't taste great, but if you can finish it in one sitting, it's free and you get your picture on the wall of the pizza place. It's not really a meal, it's mostly an accomplishment.

As near as I can figure, I have three main (and possibly more on the side) obstacles here:

1) Magic. I really don't like how magic is built in this game. You get to a certain point and magic is predominantly metamagic and counterspelling. A mage instantly contingencies up some Protection from Magic Weapons, Stoneskin, Immunity: Anything Useful and then your mage has to spend the next few rounds stripping that down. Of course, if the enemy mage pulls off a Time Stop during this, it gets a little more difficult. But, my problem isn't that magic gets to be complex (I actually appreciate complexity). The problem is that playing the magic game just feels like doing my taxes. It's no surprise that most of my runs fall by the wayside shortly after Spellhold when the mage battles start to get more robust.

2) High level ridiculousness. I'm talking the HLAs, the eventual complete irrelevance of armor class, everyone is practically immune to magic (at least anything the allows a save), and all the other wacky stuff that happens at high levels that equates to this game not scaling well. Icewind Dale does a much better job of scaling and it's not really a thing in Planescape. But, Baldur's Gate kinda goes off the rails at a certain point.

3) The writing. I mean, it's not bad, but it's not great. What it lacks in quality content, it makes up for in quantity, that's for sure. There are a fair number of plot holes and weird story logic choices that make some character concepts (or the story in general) not make a whole lot of sense so you just have to handwave and overlook the gaps (though this does impact immersion for me). I can't really play the characters I want to play without having too many ill-fitting moments, and the characters I can create to fit aren't very compelling to me. Also, the #1 reason I play female protagonists in this game is to stop the romance plot lines before they even start. Sorry not sorry, the romances are just terrible. Yeah, there's still Anomen if you're female, but I generally don't bother with him. Hot take, Icewind Dale had better writing. It might have been a simpler story, but it was a tighter one.

4) Character synergy. I absolutely love the canon party (Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, Imoen in BG1; Jaheira, Minsc, Yoshimo->Imoen in BG1) in this game. Even if there was no "canon party", those are exactly the NPCs I would choose to bring along. But, there are some issues with the synergy here. Imoen's dual has always bothered me. Dualing her at level 7 makes absolutely no sense (and I'm a purist, so I always dual her then). At level 6, you can max out two skills (i.e. Locks and Traps) and get her thief levels back so much quicker (not to mention, still get to level 5 spells in BG1). I prefer grabbing all my NPCs ASAP and not dropping them when I have them, so sticking to canon, Imoen's dual creates a large thief-less gap that is quite annoying to manage. I've found a few (complicated) solutions for this, but it really mucks up the flow of BG1. Another aspect of character synergy is how the protagonist fits in with the party. With some builds, the protagonist is a showboat and the party is almost dead weight. With other builds, the protagonist has to hide behind the party, doesn't have much to do of import, and they don't end up feeling like a main character. It's a fine line.

As I've mentioned, I've tried virtually every race/class combination (I should mention that I also build concepts for my characters to align their motivations). However, these are my frequent flyers:

1) The Cavalier. As a class/concept, this one checks all my boxes. More interesting than a fighter. Unique equipment just for this class. Fits in with the premise (growing up in a library full of tales of storybook knights), and provides an ironic twist with the overarching story (spawn of an evil god). The high Charisma requirement makes for a great party leader. And you're the main character so right up front is a good place to be. This character does run a high risk of showboating, though. My Paladins can usually clear entire maps single-handedly before long. This character usually falls apart in BG2 when your choice is between working for the evil thieves or the evil vampires. Going with the lesser of two evils doesn't sit right with me. And, even the mod with the alternative path for Paladins is actually a little evil, too. Now, I don't play Paladins lawful stupid, but you really have to get an uncomfortable level of dirty to move the game along here and that just ruins my Paladins for me.

2) Cleric/Ranger (sometimes a modded Cleric/Stalker with staves). Gameplay-wise, this is a crazy fun class, at least for a bit until you're steamrolling everything and practically invincible. It's a definite showboat before long and a party (aside from a skill monkey) just slows you down. It also makes virtually no sense as a character concept, both in terms of the premise, and really even in general. Not to mention, you have to play a (half) elf to pull it off and I'm not a big fan of elves.

3) Some kind of multi-thief. This covers the Imoen thief gap and I always go multi because single-classed thieves are dull. The downside is that I don't actually like to play thieves. They are mainly skill monkeys, especially since their backstab eventually loses it's luster (a lot of backstab immune enemies later). I don't find them terribly essential to the overall team synergy, they just handle side jobs that nobody else can really do.

4) A Bard. I love bards in IWD, almost never play without one, and often they are my only arcane caster. In BG, it's a different story. They don't really shine in any particular area. They need a lot of buffs to make their way on the A-list, and they are back to junior varsity when their buffs are dispelled or run out. It's a lot of micro, not to do something cool and unique, but just to be decent. They do get what is probably the most interesting stronghold in my book (The Playhouse, Merella's Cabin, and the Planar Sphere are my favorites), but that's a small consolation in light of its other shortcomings.

5) Wild Mage. I don't like magic, as I previously stated, but wild surges are near the top of the list for entertainment for me. Plus the "all bhaalspawn will have chaos run through them" bit of the prophecy fits with the wild surges. It's an easy concept to build with the Candlekeep premise. In general, I don't like Vancian magic (or resting profusely) and my spellcasters are often sitting around waiting for the right time to chuck out a spell. Or, they are in a mage battle and I'm hoping I memorized the right number of Breach's vs. Lower Resistance vs. Warding Whip vs. Pierce Magic vs. etc. In any event, they aren't terribly central to the team and so I get bored, even with wild surges.

6) Cleric/Mage (sometimes a modded Cleric/Wild Mage for the wild effects on all spells). This one can be a bit interesting. The concept is usually a cleric of Oghma with bits and pieces from the Wild mage concept above. Gorion somehow bridged the gap of arcane/divine magic, so that helps. With two spellcasting classes, the spell inventory is rather large and someone works around the Vancian annoyances. I've often built this class as a buff/debuffer/controller. This is partly since their damage is going to be a little nerfed from the multiclassing, and partly because they synergize well with the party by leaning hard into the support role. It gives them plenty to do and some extra spells for all that metamagic nonsense later. With the tactics I use for the Imoen thief-less gap in BG1, this is by far the hardest character with which to pull that off. I'm not sure why this character doesn't make it that far, though. I think it's because my game flow is much more meandering (partly due to Imoen's dual), I just lose interest in the actual MQ. If I have another bash at this game, I would probably be leaning towards this character.

And so, that is where I am at. I have a bit of time before I finish my IWD challenge run, but when I do, I'd like to hop into BG next. Has anyone had this BG fatigue problem and been able to solve it? If so, do you have any tips? Thanks!

 

[Xzarloxara]

I must admit, I share some similar issues with completing the game. On the other hand, some of these issues you have are difficult for me to imagine. I am not sure how good my advice would be, but here goes:

One problem I discovered was that I got tired of using the same classes over and over, and I am not talking about the main character here; I mean for the NPCs you pick up along the way. I sometimes change their classes to something else, or maybe even add my own custom characters to the mix. For example, in the run of BG2 I am playing right now, I made Minsc into a Barbarian instead of a ranger, and Hexxat into a Shadowdancer instead of a kitless theif. It helps spice things up a lot.

I suspect a great deal of your problems stem from your rigid adherence to the 'canon party'. This kind of thing is very likely to get stale after having been done so much. I would suggest trying different things with your party to see if it makes things more interesting. I know it is hard to change your play style, but it may help a lot if you can do so.

How do you feel about using mods? You may want to try some. One I would highly recommend is SCS (Sword Coast Stratagems).

 

[jmerry]

While I can't guarantee it'll work for you, here's what helped me complete a bunch of runs: themed parties, logged and later posted to the playthroughs forum at Beamdog. The very act of writing things down provides motivation to keep going, and the themes - sometimes mechanical, sometimes roleplaying - keep the gameplay interesting.

As for how this relates to some of your specific sticking points...
1) You can sidestep this whole thing with the right theme. Several of my past runs have, in fact. Can't get bogged down in mage battles when you're not allowed to cast spells at all, for one. And in the run I did that leaned on spellcasting, I was focusing on fire - take down the enemy's one fire resistance spell, and they're as vulnerable as they'll ever need to be. Why would I care about stoneskins and spell deflections when they're sitting in a triple Incendiary Cloud?
3) To a considerable extent, I'm writing my own story here. The game text is not the final authority on what "really" happened. Especially those epilogues; I flat out write my own versions of them for my finale posts.
4) When you're building to a theme, that tends to dictate your party. My werewolf party was all monks, druids, and rogues that could get Use Any Item because that was who could become werewolves with the mod component I was exploiting. My fire-themed party picked companions that could get fire resistance from personal gear, kit abilities, or shapeshifting. My no-spellcasting party grabbed lots of pure warriors, because those are just better when you're not casting spells. And my Dorn-led party picked evil companions for obvious reasons (plus Anomen, because there aren't enough evil companions for a full party in BG2EE). All this naturally leads to variety in companion choices; the canon party is a distant memory.

 

[Urdnot_Wrex]

I am personally a roleplayer at heart, and a team player too, so what works for me in games is to create a character concept that I can stick to.
It begins with seemingly trivial decisions like a portrait (if we're talking about BG or similar games), a name and a background story. Then I think how is that person, what's their motivation, their personality? What are restrictions I want to set for myself?

My most memorable and actually most recent full playthrough from Candlekeep to the Throne of Bhaal was with a strictly roleplayed Undead Hunter, and I stuck to decisions that would morally fit the paladin, even if it meant breaking up with party members at the worst possible times because their rude comments were off-putting, sacrificing money and XP because I didn't steal, didn't break into locked houses except with very good reason (like people in the street telling you the wizard is holding the nymph captive) or not getting the Ring of Gaxx because an Undead Hunter wouldn't be so arrogant to unleash ancient evils and disturb sarcophagi that wiser people locked for a very good reason.

Or an opposite approach, to play a shadow dancer or a fighter/thief and give him a kleptomanic background who must steal everything at the risk of reputation loss and higher shop prices. Also, to accept to take a step back and give that tome to the party member who would benefit most of it, not the main, or to accept less than ideal stat rolls at character creation, or to reload only for main character death and accept the natural flow of outcomes, including equipment loss or NPC death. Skipping irrelevant side quests to save time and live with suboptimal XP or less gold can also be a flavour.

The same thing doesn't work for everyone. The thing is, at one point you should ask yourself why you want to finish the game. It should be fun. If you give yourself some frame, some conditions, some flavour and restrictions, then go for it and enjoy the ride. If you need to force yourself to come up with tricks and stuff to keep your interest, then it might be time to play something else.

I used to be a person who finishes games, but lately I have realised that sometimes just breathing the air and enjoying the time is fine. Life is too short to come up with a strategy to make yourself finish the Baldur's Gate series if you don't enjoy it.

 

[JustKneller]

My most memorable and actually most recent full playthrough from Candlekeep to the Throne of Bhaal was with a strictly roleplayed Undead Hunter, and I stuck to decisions that would morally fit the paladin...

How did you reconcile the Shadow Thieves vs. Vampires choice as a paladin? I mean, I expect obviously you went Shadow Thieves, being an Undead Hunter, but still, such a character must have found the whole situation to be deplorable.

I also build my runs off of a concept, for the most part. I have a pretty strong concept for the Cavalier and Cleric/Wild Mage. The Cleric/Ranger though, is just because it's such a great class combo. I think I like playing a paladin more, in general, but in this game, the Cleric/Wild Mage is a better fit with the story. I don't think any of my paladin runs made it far past picking a side (Thieves vs. Vamps) before I just got a bad taste in my mouth over it.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Even within the paladin class, there’s room for variant character concepts. I played a paladin once. She was an undead hunter named Alessandra.

Alessandra was deeply affected by the taint. She became a paladin because she wanted a structure to control her urges, along with a socially sanctioned way to unleash them. As an undead hunter she could indulge her most violent impulses while garnering praise. That, to her, was the appeal. She was constantly in danger of falling, constantly in danger of giving in to temptation: constantly balancing light and dark, while maintaining appearances before the world around her.

Most of my characters have a theme band and a theme song. Alessandra’s theme band was L7. Her theme song was Monster. An odd choice for a paladin, perhaps, but a spot on selection for a riot grrl Van Helsing with a darkside, and that is what Alessandra was- paladin label or no. Selfhood transcends class, or at least it should. Role playing her was about the dichotomy between the inner and outer, reality and appearances, actions and fantasies. It was also an exploration of the inevitability of hypocrisy.

Zeroing in on the point, building a character that is compelling and can thrive in the world of BG often requires us to stray from class archetypes. That’s a good thing. Interesting fiction is rarely found in dogged commitment to archetype. It’s found in complexity, conflict and variation on theme. View the class archetype as a platform for creativity, not a straight jacket. A character that is a class first and a person second will always be a bore. Put the person first, and remember that people are complicated.

Cheers.

A.

Btw, @Urdnot_Wrex , I too, like to begin the character creation process with a portrait. I find a portrait that interests me, and then I ask myself who she is. I don't always proceed that way, but my most interesting characters all started like that.

Btw, @JustKneller , I, like others, have found that sharing my runs helps me see my adventures through. If you're looking for a platform to share, you are more than welcome to post in the Candlekeep Annex thread. The thread is partly for no reload runs, but only partly. I and others would greatly appreciated a thoughtfully RPed run, however many reloads it may take.

 

[BelgarathMTH]

@Urdnot_Wrex , I think your reply is beautifully put. I also thought of suggesting that a person shouldn't force him or herself to finish a game that's no fun or not being enjoyed, but I couldn't think of a way to say it that wouldn't come across as negative or not addressing the question that was asked. You said it all far better than I could have.

 

[JustKneller]

Even within the paladin class, there’s room for variant character concepts. I played a paladin once. She was an undead hunter named Alessandra.

....

Btw, @JustKneller , I, like others, have found that sharing my runs helps me see my adventures through. If you're looking for a platform to share, you are more than welcome to post in the Candlekeep Annex thread. The thread is partly for no reload runs, but only partly. I and others would greatly appreciated a thoughtfully RPed run, however many reloads it may take.

I'm going to open up a can of worms here, but I'll start with a disclaimer. Disclaimer: The D&D alignment system is problematic beyond measure.

We're getting a little existential here, but the essential question is asking where alignment comes from. I think of it as not just the face you put on, but who you are as a person underneath it all. If Alessandra had some serious bloodlust, and became a Paladin to channel it in a less destructive direction, they still have the desire to do "bad" so LG might not really be an accurate reflection. I mean, Alessandra is kind of a D&D Dexter in a way. We all like Dexter, but he's definitely no knight in shining armor.

But, I'm not really shooting holes in your character concept. I really like your concept (and I really like L7, especially that song ). I actually think most alignment "debates" are silly and what alignment means is very, very subjective. That's my only point there.

For me, not having a remotely "good" option was only part of the problem. As a Lawful Good character from the Sword Coast, I could potentially rationalize the Cowled Wizards and Athkatla's government at large as "corrupt" and not worthy of respect. I mean, Lawful Stupid will follow any law, but Lawful Good wouldn't necessarily follow a law the deprives the citizenry of due process and civil liberties. And, the Cowled Wizards are clearly up to some bullshit.

Here's where I'm talking out of my butt a little. I haven't played the game in quite a while so my memory isn't totally sharp here. However, I remember having to do some kind of unsavory tasks for the Shadow Thieves to move things along. However, I could be confused and actually (possibly) be thinking of what we have to do to help Yoshimo to keep him out of hot water when we get to the Docks for the first time. I also think that part of the turn-off was that the dialogue itself didn't really give me a lot of "I don't approve of any of this, but for Imoen's sake..." options. It was more like, "Yeah, sure, I'll kick a puppy. What's my next quest, now?"

In any event, I kinda get into my character concept, think through my choices (clearly you do as well). and I'm not just clicking stuff on a screen. As much as my memory of the game specifics isn't great (which helps with replays), I do concretely remember having the feeling that my character was just soured after Chapter 2 and having trouble enjoying the run after that. It's a bummer because I really like the concept for the character, and it works really well with the flow of the game through the series (including Imoen's dual). SOA Chapter 2 really throws a monkey wrench in the works, though.

All that being said, I'm currently working an IWD run I'm planning to post when complete (in it's own thread, though). Even if people don't enjoy it so much, having that goal keeps me going. With the BG Saga run, I would probably do something similar, but post as I play instead. I don't have as much faith that I'll keep this one going. But having that pressure to keep my own thread alive, I'm hoping, will put me over the hump.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Do you know Star Trek: The Next Generation?

What alignment would you assign to Lieutenant Worf?

 

[JustKneller]

Do you know Star Trek: The Next Generation?

What alignment would you assign to Lieutenant Worf?

I kinda do. I don't know the ins and outs of the character, but I'm leaning towards Neutral Good...unless I missed some kind of major character twist that makes this question far more complicated than I think.

 

[m7600]

The D&D alignment system is problematic beyond measure.

Yep, I hear that. I love alignment, but it definitely breaks down in some examples. The classical one is: what alignment is Batman? A great question which has led to endless discussions. Is he Lawful Good? No, because he's a vigilante. So he's Chaotic Good? Not quite, because acts outside of the law but in the interest of the law. So he's Neutral Good? Still no cigar, his motivations are not built on altruism, they're built on his idea of justice. So we're back at square one and he's Lawful Good? Lol...

 

[Alesia_BH]

Neutral Good or Lawful Good, I'd say. Most people who know the show would assign him to one of those categories.

Worf is, as you know, a Klingon. He has intensely violent impulses, which he reigns in through adherence to Starfleet principles and practices. He also routinely releases his impulses in a safe, socially sanctioned way through holodeck simulations. Worf's struggles to manage his impulses don't undermine his inherent goodness in the mind of the viewer, or his colleagues within his world. Instead they reinforce it.

Alessandra was like Worf. Her Bhaalspwan heritage was Worf's Klingon heritage. Her paladin hood was his Startfleet. The undead were her holodeck.

Lawful Good, ever in danger of slipping, doesn't seem like a stretch to me. That's exactly where I'd place Worf

 

[Alesia_BH]

More importantly, I'd suggest that the purpose of the alignment system is to facilitate role playing. To the extent that it gets in the way of role playing, we should feel free to take liberties with it.

(Or maybe that's just the Chaotic Good in me speaking, lol)

Anyhoo, know that I respect your commitment to role playing and keen interest in narrative, @JustKneller . We see too little of that in the BG community. I appreciate you

Cheers,

A.

Btw, the morally dubious Shadow Thief quests that you mentioned are on the Mae'Var Guildhall questline, the one that Yoshimo refers you to. That questline is optional, fortunately. My characters do sometimes skip it on RP grounds.

 

[JustKneller]

Alessandra was like Worf. Her Bhaalspwan heritage was Worf's Klingon heritage. Her paladin hood was his Startfleet. The undead were her holodeck.

That's brilliant. It's times like these we really need a golf clap reaction thing. ^That's^ the best I could do.