JustKneller
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Warning: extreme hyperanalytical nerdery to follow.
As I mentioned in another thread, I had this conversation with chatGPT about the BG trilogy and picking a class for the canon party. I would say that what the bot offered wasn't terrible, but I did have to explain some concepts, both mechanical and narrative, about the game so it understood the situation. For example, it mentioned a cleric/thief with short swords for backstabbing, or it was dual-classing demihumans. I think this is a better conversation to have with actual humans, with the real kind of intelligence and not just some algorithm that actually isn't AI, but is being marketed as such anyway.
The essential question here is, if you are running the trilogy with the canon party, and considering the premise of the game, what class choice for Gorion's Ward (GW) 'best' complements the party function and personalities, makes the most sense based on his background, and brings the most to the story? I mean, the short answer is that really anything can work. GW grew up in Candlekeep and could have learned about anything from a book. But this is the writer's room answer. A fighter is going to have different narrative and functional strength vs. a thief, for example.
A couple conceits.
1) The canon party is Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir for the first game and Jaheira, Minsc, and Imoen for the second game. Yoshimo is a big story character, but not strictly canon. You can tell him to sod off in Chateau Irenicus if you really want to.
2) This is the original version of the game, not Beamdog's altered version. So, no kits in the first game, nor are there blackguards and whatever else they added. Kits can be chosen for the second game, though. Half-orcs are not an option. Obviously, SoD doesn't exist.
3) Imoen duals to a mage at level 7 in the first game. However, level 6 is an option. They actually bungled her cre file in the second game. She is listed as level 7, but only has six levels of thief skill points.
Even with these conceits, the easy answer is that GW could have read about such-and-such in a book, which inspired him to be so-and-so. Anything and everything works. But, like I said, this is the writer's room answer. Some character choices will help tie the story together better than others. Additionally, the canon party needs support in some areas more than others.
I have my on thoughts here (below), but I'm more interested in what everyone would choose and why.
1) Good choice: Paladin (Cavalier). This was chatgpt's top choice. I think it won a lot of points due to the contrast between a holy warrior and the blood of an evil god. Plus, it has the only stronghold quest that actually has a link to Gorion's Ward. Functionally, it gives a strong front liner (and you need a third with the canon party) and decent turn undead if there isn't a cleric otherwise. Plus you can put some miles on the holy sword with a paladin without taking Keldorn from his family.
2) Good choice: Cleric (Lathander). It fills a functional gap better than a warrior class, especially if you have a family reunion and take Sarevok on later. The classic party is Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief and the one thing missing is a cleric. You don't have room for one in the first game, and your only pure class choices in the second game are an evil cleric (where the canon party is good) that you need to romance to change alignment and Annoymen. Story-wise, it works. The Candlekeepians love their Oghma, but you can kit to Lathander in the second game (looking for renewal from your taint, as I mentioned in the other thread) for story points.
3) Good choice: Ranger (Stalker). This one is nuanced, but hear me out. I'm thinking back on my chatgpt convo and I'm surprised this didn't rank higher (or at all). It was kind of written off as redundant with Minsc, but I don't think it's that bad. I told chatgpt that I would be traveling alone with Imoen for quite some time to build her levels and work out her dual class. We would make a break for Beregost, but really spend most of the time in the wilderness. It's all just filler content anyway. Might as well get it out of the way and then just work the main quest. Keep in mind that GW is a level 1 whatever which is hardly any different than a 0-level human. Just look at Dreppin's stats. In a fair fight, he would have a good chance at taking down GW. The idea here, though, is that GW doesn't leave Candlekeep a ranger, but becomes one through circumstance, living in the wilds with Imoen just trying to survive. Or, if GW did express interest in the ranger life in Candlekeep, this could be why Gorion chose Jaheira and Khalid to meet upon their exit. Jaheira, especially, would be equipped to mentor GW in the way of nature. Or maybe both, there are a lot of ways you can go after the ambush. The FAI, run off to Beregost, try to get into BG and disappear in the city, run into the wilds. If GW chooses the wilds, it could be a reflection of their inner nature.
4) Mixed: Bard. The bard (pun unintended) gets a lot of story points. Candlekeep is full of stories and their main patron deity (Oghma) is the patron of bards. A bard does bolster the arcane power of the party and have some of the strongest dispels due to faster leveling. I think bards are pretty common among the Harpers and could be a good fit with Jaheira and Khalid. However, its more of a novelty/support class and the kits are a little incongruous. Skalds are really more of a northern deal. Blades are rather ostentatious for someone with such a grim path. Jesters are (pun also unintended) are just silly. Plus if you duo with Imoen to work out her levels, a bard will have a tougher time than a martial class.
5) Mixed: Mage (Wild mage). There's a saying in writing that is usually some version of, 'slay your darlings'. As much as I don't like arcane magic in this game, the wild mage is my darling. It's decent for the story, considering the nature of Candlekeep and having a father like Gorion. Three mages in the first game is overkill, but I guess it beats underkill. It ties in decently with the second game (especially the cowled wizards element) and (I believe) has the most profitable stronghold. Picking up the wild mage kit in the second game could be a side effect from Irenicus' experiments. This is probably the strongest case out of any for picking a kit at this point. I think the class would have trouble managing Imoen's dual, though. I've read the journal of Elmonster. It's technically doable, but (especially the early game) an exercise in patience and frustration. I think if it wasn't for Imoen's dual, it would rank higher for me. Plus, I don't think it has much party synergy. Once you get to a certain level, if you play a certain (boring) way, the party actually becomes a liability.
6) Mixed: Fighter (Berserker). A fighter isn't bad, it isn't good. It's just a safe choice. It adds nothing, but also doesn't go against the grain of anything. The berserker kit makes sense, in a trite kind of way. The other kits are god-awful for the setting though. You grew up in Candlekeep and your father was a wizard and then you decide to become a wizard slayer after finding out you're the child of Bhaal? And kensai belong in Kara-Tur, which is on the other side of the world.
7) Poor: Druid. It doesn't fill a niche functionally and seems out of place with the story. I just don't see a reason for two druids in the story or party.
8) Poor: Thief. It's handy, functionally, to have a leveling thief for traps, though the most effective uses are exploits. It makes sense with the story, with Imoen being your partner in crime growing up. However, there are functional and story problems for me. Functionally, the idea is that you specialize in what Imoen doesn't take. So, she has locks and find traps, you have stealth, find illusions, set traps, and maybe pick pockets for stealing. However, Imoen's downtime is still a problem if she is taking OL and FT. You could take OL and FT yourself and then build into the others later, but then there is no point to build it for Imoen. Plus, this is a good party, so running a thieves' guild goes against the grain of this. Minsc sure as hell wouldn't stand for it.
9) Poor: Most dual/multi-classes and kits. Multi-classes feel so meta to me. I am especially biased against Fighter/Mages from my AD&D days. It was the munchkin choice. I could make a case for something like a cleric/mage as someone coming from Candlekeep, but the Kensai/Thief is just powergamer nonsense. I also think the kits are a bit of a non-sequitor grab bag. Between kensai being from across the world, wizard slayers and inquisitors when your dad was a good mage, or avengers and beastmasters when you had a really sheltered, civilized life, a lot of it just doesn't fit. The weird thing about it is, if you look at the splatbooks (which I presume they did to find these ideas), there are more fitting choices. For example, with the clerics, Lathander is a good add, but a better match for Neutral and Evil would be Oghma (neutral, the patron for Candlekeep) and Mask (he liked to mess with divine plans) or even Bhaal (you can pull divine power from dead gods).
Anyway, that's where I landed. But what about you?
As I mentioned in another thread, I had this conversation with chatGPT about the BG trilogy and picking a class for the canon party. I would say that what the bot offered wasn't terrible, but I did have to explain some concepts, both mechanical and narrative, about the game so it understood the situation. For example, it mentioned a cleric/thief with short swords for backstabbing, or it was dual-classing demihumans. I think this is a better conversation to have with actual humans, with the real kind of intelligence and not just some algorithm that actually isn't AI, but is being marketed as such anyway.
The essential question here is, if you are running the trilogy with the canon party, and considering the premise of the game, what class choice for Gorion's Ward (GW) 'best' complements the party function and personalities, makes the most sense based on his background, and brings the most to the story? I mean, the short answer is that really anything can work. GW grew up in Candlekeep and could have learned about anything from a book. But this is the writer's room answer. A fighter is going to have different narrative and functional strength vs. a thief, for example.
A couple conceits.
1) The canon party is Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir for the first game and Jaheira, Minsc, and Imoen for the second game. Yoshimo is a big story character, but not strictly canon. You can tell him to sod off in Chateau Irenicus if you really want to.
2) This is the original version of the game, not Beamdog's altered version. So, no kits in the first game, nor are there blackguards and whatever else they added. Kits can be chosen for the second game, though. Half-orcs are not an option. Obviously, SoD doesn't exist.
3) Imoen duals to a mage at level 7 in the first game. However, level 6 is an option. They actually bungled her cre file in the second game. She is listed as level 7, but only has six levels of thief skill points.
Even with these conceits, the easy answer is that GW could have read about such-and-such in a book, which inspired him to be so-and-so. Anything and everything works. But, like I said, this is the writer's room answer. Some character choices will help tie the story together better than others. Additionally, the canon party needs support in some areas more than others.
I have my on thoughts here (below), but I'm more interested in what everyone would choose and why.
1) Good choice: Paladin (Cavalier). This was chatgpt's top choice. I think it won a lot of points due to the contrast between a holy warrior and the blood of an evil god. Plus, it has the only stronghold quest that actually has a link to Gorion's Ward. Functionally, it gives a strong front liner (and you need a third with the canon party) and decent turn undead if there isn't a cleric otherwise. Plus you can put some miles on the holy sword with a paladin without taking Keldorn from his family.
2) Good choice: Cleric (Lathander). It fills a functional gap better than a warrior class, especially if you have a family reunion and take Sarevok on later. The classic party is Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief and the one thing missing is a cleric. You don't have room for one in the first game, and your only pure class choices in the second game are an evil cleric (where the canon party is good) that you need to romance to change alignment and Annoymen. Story-wise, it works. The Candlekeepians love their Oghma, but you can kit to Lathander in the second game (looking for renewal from your taint, as I mentioned in the other thread) for story points.
3) Good choice: Ranger (Stalker). This one is nuanced, but hear me out. I'm thinking back on my chatgpt convo and I'm surprised this didn't rank higher (or at all). It was kind of written off as redundant with Minsc, but I don't think it's that bad. I told chatgpt that I would be traveling alone with Imoen for quite some time to build her levels and work out her dual class. We would make a break for Beregost, but really spend most of the time in the wilderness. It's all just filler content anyway. Might as well get it out of the way and then just work the main quest. Keep in mind that GW is a level 1 whatever which is hardly any different than a 0-level human. Just look at Dreppin's stats. In a fair fight, he would have a good chance at taking down GW. The idea here, though, is that GW doesn't leave Candlekeep a ranger, but becomes one through circumstance, living in the wilds with Imoen just trying to survive. Or, if GW did express interest in the ranger life in Candlekeep, this could be why Gorion chose Jaheira and Khalid to meet upon their exit. Jaheira, especially, would be equipped to mentor GW in the way of nature. Or maybe both, there are a lot of ways you can go after the ambush. The FAI, run off to Beregost, try to get into BG and disappear in the city, run into the wilds. If GW chooses the wilds, it could be a reflection of their inner nature.
4) Mixed: Bard. The bard (pun unintended) gets a lot of story points. Candlekeep is full of stories and their main patron deity (Oghma) is the patron of bards. A bard does bolster the arcane power of the party and have some of the strongest dispels due to faster leveling. I think bards are pretty common among the Harpers and could be a good fit with Jaheira and Khalid. However, its more of a novelty/support class and the kits are a little incongruous. Skalds are really more of a northern deal. Blades are rather ostentatious for someone with such a grim path. Jesters are (pun also unintended) are just silly. Plus if you duo with Imoen to work out her levels, a bard will have a tougher time than a martial class.
5) Mixed: Mage (Wild mage). There's a saying in writing that is usually some version of, 'slay your darlings'. As much as I don't like arcane magic in this game, the wild mage is my darling. It's decent for the story, considering the nature of Candlekeep and having a father like Gorion. Three mages in the first game is overkill, but I guess it beats underkill. It ties in decently with the second game (especially the cowled wizards element) and (I believe) has the most profitable stronghold. Picking up the wild mage kit in the second game could be a side effect from Irenicus' experiments. This is probably the strongest case out of any for picking a kit at this point. I think the class would have trouble managing Imoen's dual, though. I've read the journal of Elmonster. It's technically doable, but (especially the early game) an exercise in patience and frustration. I think if it wasn't for Imoen's dual, it would rank higher for me. Plus, I don't think it has much party synergy. Once you get to a certain level, if you play a certain (boring) way, the party actually becomes a liability.
6) Mixed: Fighter (Berserker). A fighter isn't bad, it isn't good. It's just a safe choice. It adds nothing, but also doesn't go against the grain of anything. The berserker kit makes sense, in a trite kind of way. The other kits are god-awful for the setting though. You grew up in Candlekeep and your father was a wizard and then you decide to become a wizard slayer after finding out you're the child of Bhaal? And kensai belong in Kara-Tur, which is on the other side of the world.
7) Poor: Druid. It doesn't fill a niche functionally and seems out of place with the story. I just don't see a reason for two druids in the story or party.
8) Poor: Thief. It's handy, functionally, to have a leveling thief for traps, though the most effective uses are exploits. It makes sense with the story, with Imoen being your partner in crime growing up. However, there are functional and story problems for me. Functionally, the idea is that you specialize in what Imoen doesn't take. So, she has locks and find traps, you have stealth, find illusions, set traps, and maybe pick pockets for stealing. However, Imoen's downtime is still a problem if she is taking OL and FT. You could take OL and FT yourself and then build into the others later, but then there is no point to build it for Imoen. Plus, this is a good party, so running a thieves' guild goes against the grain of this. Minsc sure as hell wouldn't stand for it.
9) Poor: Most dual/multi-classes and kits. Multi-classes feel so meta to me. I am especially biased against Fighter/Mages from my AD&D days. It was the munchkin choice. I could make a case for something like a cleric/mage as someone coming from Candlekeep, but the Kensai/Thief is just powergamer nonsense. I also think the kits are a bit of a non-sequitor grab bag. Between kensai being from across the world, wizard slayers and inquisitors when your dad was a good mage, or avengers and beastmasters when you had a really sheltered, civilized life, a lot of it just doesn't fit. The weird thing about it is, if you look at the splatbooks (which I presume they did to find these ideas), there are more fitting choices. For example, with the clerics, Lathander is a good add, but a better match for Neutral and Evil would be Oghma (neutral, the patron for Candlekeep) and Mask (he liked to mess with divine plans) or even Bhaal (you can pull divine power from dead gods).
Anyway, that's where I landed. But what about you?