The Witcher series

m7600

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Rethortics like these can only be made if one has absolutely no idea what Witcher, as a profession (excluding the most basic definition), is and what it entails. I guess that in the same instance, valuing concepts over people/characters also applies.
Unlike you, we're not Polish. I don't mean that as an insult. The Witcher books are written from a Polish point of view. There's a lot going on there that people from the Americas, like @JustKneller and me, simply don't understand. You're invited to educate us on that issue, if you're up for the task.

Sometimes I really don't want to live on this planet anymore.
Don't be so melodramatic.
 

JustKneller

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It's a bit like that, only more baseline. We're not talking about trans characters, or black lesbian vampires, or bisexual half-orcs. They're trying to decide if a woman can be a Witcher.
Can women vote in Witcher-world? Can they own land? Maybe we need to start with the basics.


Edit: the first book was published in 1986.
Wow. Well that explains some things.

It's pretty cute that we have reached the point of mentioning "gender discrimination". I guess it would be pretty progressive to write a story in which women were allowed, and encouraged to, go through torturous procedures with insane high mortality rates and lasting, unpleasant, consequences for their entire lives, all in order to beat allegations of the Witcher being "boy's club".
Well, it's fiction and someone made the choice to exclude women from a major role in the narrative. I mean, it's an intentional choice, and an odd one to make. And women historically had more experience than men going through torturous procedures with high mortality rates and lasting, unpleasant consequences. That was basically childbirth before modern medicine.
 

m7600

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And women historically had more experience than men going through torturous procedures with high mortality rates and lasting, unpleasant consequences. That was basically childbirth before modern medicine.
It's why in the earlier editions of D&D, a woman can have higher Constitution than a man, while a man can have higher Strength than a woman.
 

JustKneller

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It's why in the earlier editions of D&D, a woman can have higher Constitution than a man, while a man can have higher Strength than a woman.
I think Arcanum did something similar. I thought it was odd, but I just kinda ignored it.
 

Cahir

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Well, @Cahir said that he read the books 25 years ago, so there's that.

Edit: the first book was published in 1986.
Yeah, books were written in the 80's, so it's not surprising it was written the way it was. I agree with @Bruce_O onthis. People tend to see wokeness and DEI everywhere these days. Even the simple fact that studio decided, they'll make a female protagonist is seen as woke. The only game I know (even if I haven't played it), that I would truly call woke is Dragon Age: Veilguard. But there the woke agenda reached caricatural level.
 

m7600

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Yeah, books were written in the 80's, so it's not surprising it was written the way it was. I agree with @Bruce_O onthis. People tend to see wokeness and DEI everywhere these days. Even the simple fact that studio decided, they'll make a female protagonist is seen as woke. The only game I know (even if I haven't played it), that I would truly call woke is Dragon Age: Veilguard. But there the woke agenda reached caricatural level.
Can you explain, from a Polish POV, what the problem is with Ciri being a Witcher? Or is the nationality of the author something that has nothing to do with the books?
 

Cahir

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Can you explain, from a Polish POV, what the problem is with Ciri being a Witcher? Or is the nationality of the author something that has nothing to do with the books?
I don't think author being a Pole Has anything to do with it, rather that in the 80's women's position in many countries was not as strong as today. I don't even think there was an I'll intention behind such world building. It's just the 80's were still very much patriarchal era, or "the boys club" as you called it.
 

O_Bruce

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Well, it's fiction and someone made the choice to exclude women from a major role in the narrative. I mean, it's an intentional choice, and an odd one to make. And women historically had more experience than men going through torturous procedures with high mortality rates and lasting, unpleasant consequences. That was basically childbirth before modern medicine.
Women, for one thing, are not expendable. Men were, are, and always will be. If that's a reason not to forcibly turning them [women] in monster-kiling machines, then I don't know what is. I wouldn't wish for women to suffer without any reason, much less for particular ones I care about. Some people would, just to sound "progressive".

Comparing childbirth to Trials of Grass is just insane, especially if you consider the fact that historically women were valued and respected from going through childbirth vs how Witcher are treaded, particularly by comon folk, in the Sapkowski's writing.
Wow. Well that explains some things.
I assure you, you're mistaken. Sapkowski was rather politically progressive in the days. As in, he was left-leaning.

Heck, some of most powerful characters in Witcher universe are women: namely sorceresses, who sometimes held more power than kings, at least in some instances. The only known instances to me in which anybody could just tell a monarch to shut up and do as they're told, is from sorceress (who also got away with it).
Unlike you, we're not Polish. I don't mean that as an insult. The Witcher books are written from a Polish point of view. There's a lot going on there that people from the Americas, like @JustKneller and me, simply don't understand. You're invited to educate us on that issue, if you're up for the task.
My nationality has nothing to do with anything. Even if you haven't read the books, you'll find at least some of the clues in games. But let's see what being Witcher entails:

- You're either taken away from your parents as a kid (forcefully or by coersion, it doesn't matter, really) or you're orphan, or unwanted child given away.
- You are being raised up in a remote place away from most of civilization, and you're undergoing harsh training on daily basis, just to...
- ...at the some point undergoing Trial of Grass. Out of 10 candidates, 3 or 4 usually lives through. So, 60% to 70% of your peers will be dead.
- There are further training and mutations. Usually one or two candidates live to become Witchers.
- You're excellent swordsman, you have exceptional knowledge regarding monsters, curses etc. Your reflexes and immune systems are greatly enhanced, as well as stamina and healing factor. You can perform some simple magic known as Signs. For that, you traded any potential to live a normal life. Without your say in the matter or consent, of course.
- You are sterile. Forget about having a biological family.
- Or any normal life. Your prospects of being "normal" part of the society is nearly non-existent.
- You are seen as a freak, monster almost, by most of the common folk. You are also often treated as such.
- You earn very little from a very dangerous jobs. Furthermore, the common folks that are paying you often will try
to screw you over while at it.
- Very few people can actually see through prejudice towards you. Needless to say, you have very few friends.
- I forgot to mention that you are aging much slower than normal humans. That should be a plus, unless you consider that doesn't matter much: no Witcher has ever died of old age, so you'll die slaughtered by some monster. Or by humans, who knows.

If anyone reads the above and would like women to go through that for nothing other than being "progressive", then I don't know what I can say to you.

Don't be so melodramatic.
I've seen enough of 'murican politics and how full of nonsense it is and I'm tired of it already.
 

m7600

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I've seen enough of 'murican politics and how full of nonsense it is and I'm tired of it already.
Ok, I'll bite. Are European politics better? This might be a topic for discussion in Philosophical Musings.
 

JustKneller

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Yeah, books were written in the 80's, so it's not surprising it was written the way it was. I agree with @Bruce_O onthis. People tend to see wokeness and DEI everywhere these days. Even the simple fact that studio decided, they'll make a female protagonist is seen as woke. The only game I know (even if I haven't played it), that I would truly call woke is Dragon Age: Veilguard. But there the woke agenda reached caricatural level.
I think this is the double-edge sword. Like, there's a really fine line between insensitive categorization and woke-ness for its own sake. From what I'm reading, I don't really see a good reason to prohibit women from becoming Witchers, aside from somebody just wrote it out that way. On the other hand, I also think a lot of the bioessentialism debates in game design are just silly. I dunno. 🤷‍♂️
 

Cahir

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From what I'm reading, I don't really see a good reason to prohibit women from becoming Witchers, aside from somebody just wrote it out that way.
Bruce_O just gave a plenty of good reasons, why women weren't witchers? Why Sapokowski wrote it that way? No clue.
Ok, I'll bite. Are European politics better? This might be a topic for discussion in Philosophical Musings.

I wouldn't start political discussion if I were you. I have seen a single Politics thread on forums I've visited that wouldn't be closed at some point. It just doesn't work. There's too much polarisation these days, that cannot be reasoned with. Despite the heated argument, we are being civilised here. I fear turning to politics might damper this sensitivity in all of us.
I assure you, you're mistaken. Sapkowski was rather politically progressive in the days. As in, he was left-leaning.
That's interesting, I never cared to read more about his views, because personally I think he's an ass, so never cared much if he is left or right-leaning. I mean, I do like his writing, but he's not a very likeable person.
 

m7600

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I wouldn't start political discussion if I were you.
I've already done it through PM. What's it to you?
I have seen a single Politics thread on forums I've visited that wouldn't be closed at some point.
I'm doing it through PM. What's it to you, stranger?

It just doesn't work. There's too much polarisation these days, that cannot be reasoned with.
That's an opinion, not a fact.

Despite the heated argument, we are being civilised here.
"We" as in who? Does that "we" include me? Yes or no, rooster?

fear turning to politics might damper this sensitivity in all of us.
Speak for yourself. Or speak to the interlocutors that I have via PM.
 

JustKneller

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Bruce_O just gave a plenty of good reasons, why women weren't witchers? Why Sapokowski wrote it that way? No clue.
I appreciate that he explained the lore to me. However, I don't think anthropic arguments are terribly good ones to support a writer's choices. It's kind of like gamers who play characters who are assholes and then defend themselves by saying, "That's not me, it's my character."
 

Cahir

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I've already done it through PM. What's it to you?
Thank you for the offer, but no thank you
That's an opinion, not a fact.
Like 90% of things we write here ;)
"We" as in who? Does that "we" include me? Yes or no, rooster?
As "we", I meant all participants in this discussion. Imagine such a discussion on a random thread on X.
Speak for yourself. Or speak to the interlocutors that I have via PM.
All right, I'm speaking for myself. It may damper my sensitivity, and I don't want to act as I'm insensitive.
 

m7600

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It's kind of like gamers who play characters who are assholes and then defend themselves by saying, "That's not me, it's my character."
100%. But they don't play tabletop RPGs, I think. I could be wrong about that though.
 
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