Does anyone remember how ROUGH BGEE's initial release was?

Fandraxx

Habitué
Messages
75
Recently started working on a historical-type video recapping exactly that.

Between the bugs, the intel hardware problems, Atari pulling it from stores, no mods and all the bickering over the new content, it's amazing that it reached the state it's in today.

Just goes to show you how willing people are to gather their parties!
 

Black Elk

Habitué
Messages
193
I'd be interested to watch that sort of recap, cause I totally slept on this period of BG history.

I think I purchased BG1-TOSC probably 6 times on physical media. The first couple times at a full retail price. There was the original big box that was like 50 bones out the door, and the expansion which was pushing 40 I think. Then the one that had 'em both together in anticipation of BG2, like with the T shirt if you hopped in early hehe. Then the re-ups in the smaller boxes with a compact disc case lol. Then OG Saga with another box after that. So many BGs reacquired due to scritcher scratched cds.

This is still fun to watch


That music lives forever
 

OrlonKronsteen

Habitué
Messages
126
I just remember being so happy it was happening at all. And I was thrilled by the prospect of being able to use kits in BG1 (I missed tutu completely). Last but not least, the blackguard kit. Dark knights have always been a favourite of mine, thematically. So overall I was pretty chuffed. The bugs didn’t bother me as much as they did others.

Now, the 2.0 patch really bummed me out. That was unbelievably buggy, and I wasn’t fond of some of the changes. In retrospect, it was obviously a good thing (especially from a modding standpoint), but at the time I thought it was a disaster. That was the point at which I thought the whole thing might implode. I still think it was an error to release it in that state, but the game survived and they went on to improve it further.

If I suddenly came into Elon Musk kind of money, I’d have the games remade, rather than patched. And I mean faithfully remade, with reproductions of the 2D art and built with a modern engine - and with updated graphics (on the scale of, say, Pillars of eternity) and AI improvements.
 

m7600

Habitué
Messages
653
Like many people, I played Baldur's Gate 2 before the first game. I remember all the hype before even playing it. The catchphrase of the day was "Dude, this game is so good, it occupies five cds!!!"

We measured the "coolness" of a game back in the 90 based on how many CDs the game occupied. Lol
 

O_Bruce

Habitué
Messages
277
Hah, I remember BG:EE launch. I also remember a several-month delay that was announced about 4 days before the initial release. That was disappointing. And then there was actual release day, with lots of issues, and that's for people lucky enough that actually could run the game. But lessons were learned by me that day: never pre-order videogames, under any circumstances. No exceptions.

That being said, BG:EE is in a great space now, so all in all, everything ended well enough. It even got an expansion I didn't suspect, and while that had its problems, it was largely unrelated to the actual merit of the expansion
 

JustKneller

Habitué
Messages
211
Wow, I had no idea the EE was that old. 1998!? I've been playing since the jump, but I think I only even heard of EE like ten or so years later. I still don't have it, though. But, it's on my gog wishlist in the event I get curious to check it out and it happens to be on a dirt cheap sale at the time.
 

JustKneller

Habitué
Messages
211
I just googled BGEE and it said 1998 (and I thought the original was 1996). I thought it odd that the EE would come out so quickly. That makes more sense now. I do remember the flak it took for the writes, re-writes, changes and the bugs, though. It's largely why I stayed away.
 

Fandraxx

Habitué
Messages
75
I just remember being so happy it was happening at all. And I was thrilled by the prospect of being able to use kits in BG1 (I missed tutu completely). Last but not least, the blackguard kit. Dark knights have always been a favourite of mine, thematically. So overall I was pretty chuffed. The bugs didn’t bother me as much as they did others.

Now, the 2.0 patch really bummed me out. That was unbelievably buggy, and I wasn’t fond of some of the changes. In retrospect, it was obviously a good thing (especially from a modding standpoint), but at the time I thought it was a disaster. That was the point at which I thought the whole thing might implode. I still think it was an error to release it in that state, but the game survived and they went on to improve it further.

If I suddenly came into Elon Musk kind of money, I’d have the games remade, rather than patched. And I mean faithfully remade, with reproductions of the 2D art and built with a modern engine - and with updated graphics (on the scale of, say, Pillars of eternity) and AI improvements.
What's ironic about that was that the Enhanced Editions were originally supposed to be closer to remakes. Beamdog had ideas to upscale the art and clean up the animations and whatnot. Wouldn't have been something completely new, but almost unquestionably would've been a fair bit more than the more simple compatibility and tech improvements that they largely wound up being.

Oster went over to Bioware to find that the source files were never backed up.

An infinity engine game not having it's files maintained properly?? Where have we heard that before??
 

JustKneller

Habitué
Messages
211
1:12. "The standard for the series"? You made the same mistake at 9:25. I have a bone to pick with that statement. OG for life! :p

Reddit seems to be a tearing you a new one over this video, so you must be doing something right.

But seriously, I might have been more on board with the EEs if they actually improved things more than just superficially (assuming one likes the new look, which I actually don't, but that's all a matter of taste and personal preference). BG had a pretty bad implementation of the 2e ruleset and you can tell that Bioware learned from their mistakes with how they built Icewind Dale (but then they also jumped the shark with some of the stuff in BG2). If Beamdog took a page out of the book of Troika (ToEE) and the direction BioWare went with IWD, and aimed for better fidelity instead of just a bunch of shinys, then I think there would be a lot less contention over the EEs (SoD aside).
 

JustKneller

Habitué
Messages
211
I was wrong! Someone on reddit called me out and my facts weren't straight. Hey, it happens, people make mistakes, so I did some reading. BG was developed by Bioware, while IWD was developed by Black Isle. I feel like things make a lot more sense now. Bioware was pretty fresh to the scene (and they went on to make more action-y games like MDK, DA, and Mass Effect), while Black Isle had past rpg experience with Fallout (and classic Fallout doesn't really pull punches) and most of their people stayed in the RPG scene. Josh Sawyer (IWD) in particular is pretty meticulous when it comes to rulesets, so naturally IWD would have much more fidelity. Man, these games are 25 years old and there's still things to learn...
 

JustKneller

Habitué
Messages
211
Redditors claim to love conversation and then act like a video from a small YouTuber is an affront to their very nature/worldview.

Honestly, I disagree with your video, but I'm not keen on all the people downvoting you for spam. Technically, you did just post a link and didn't open up any discussion (which kinda bends the rules), but like, you can watch the video in the sub and there's plenty there to discuss. And your video is completely about the game to which the sub is dedicated. Like, if you look at the top post in my profile, it's basically me railing on shills in ttrpg subs, so I'm not terribly sympathetic to YTers, so if I'M defending your right to post that, it's sayin' something.

I'm just going to go off on a tangent. I think the part where you lose people is when you get to the "get over it" portion of your commentary. Especially since, people who don't like the EE aren't not liking it just because of it's crap launch (on which your video focuses), but because they don't even like the polished up version. Meanwhile, EEers give OGs a hard time when they discuss their preference, so maybe the EEers need to "get over it".

I'm also not a fan of the general "old grizzled" vs. "new shiny" style gamers. Video games aren't just a singular cultural concept and they mean different things to different subgroups. Part of this is a generation gap, I'm sure, but I think most of this is just different motivations for gaming. The EE people who find the originals abhorrent do so for different reasons than why the OGs find the EEs to be abhorrent. So, on one hand, let's have a conversation, but on the other hand, our priorities are so different we're not even going to agree on the foundational concepts to have that conversation. And, I'm also not a fan of reddit's much higher than average internet toxicity, so that only makes things worse. (Even though the numbers are smaller, this place is way better than Reddit).

As such, we just need to shut down the internet and nobody should ever create content or discuss anything with anyone. That will finally solve the problem! 🤣
 

Fandraxx

Habitué
Messages
75
The most frustrating thing, to me, is that I've been actively replying to peoples comments AND am pretty active (all things considered) in that sub outside of the video. I didn't realize I needed to bring an essay to post something I thought people might be interested in :ROFLMAO:.

If we wanted to get really deep into why some people are so mad, I think it's less the "get over it" and more the fact that I dared to say anything vaguely nice about Beamdog. That sub is pretty anti-Beamdog from everything I've ever seen. Also think they're taking the whole video as me saying the originals are terrible... which I literally never say or even really allude to? Maybe I'm expecting too much nuance from the internet, but saying I think the EEs are the easiest way to play the game nowadays doesn't mean I'm saying the originals are terrible. I don't think so, at least.

Either way, my favorite comment has GOTTA be someone telling me not to quit my day job on YouTube. Legitimate belly laugh.
 

JustKneller

Habitué
Messages
211
The most frustrating thing, to me, is that I've been actively replying to peoples comments AND am pretty active (all things considered) in that sub outside of the video.
That's why I spoke out against shills on the ttrpg subs. Pretty much all of them were not active participants and would just spam the sub to cropdust their crappy self-published game. If you're participating otherwise, people really shouldn't be giving you a hard time about it.

If we wanted to get really deep into why some people are so mad, I think it's less the "get over it" and more the fact that I dared to say anything vaguely nice about Beamdog.
I don't know about that. A lot of people there seem to be well invested in the EE and I haven't seen a lot of anti-Beamdog talk. I mean, wasn't Beamdog founded by the same people who worked at or founded Bioware, who made the BG series? I mean, I know that they're not the specific designers (I'm pretty sure), but it's basically the same "people".

I really think that "get over it" bit comes off bad. And, to be fair, I don't think you've captured the gestalt of the preference for the originals and what people actually don't like about the EE. The crappy launch is not even a blip on the radar, I'm sure. I pretty much expect games to be kinda shit on release, which is why I don't buy anything until it's at least a year or two old. But, for the EE, even once they got it together, they didn't exactly win a ton of people over. If you look at the steamcharts (link), the numbers for the first game never pull up after launch, and the numbers for the next game are significantly worse. You can also see the staggering for the numbers on the first game. I can almost guarantee that those peaks in the first game will coordinate with Steam sales and there aren't the same peaks in the second game. There's probably two things happening here. One, people who have never played the game see a "cheap" rpg on sale, give it a go and don't like it (for whatever reason, not necessarily EE). Two, people who have played the originals decide they would finally check out the EE on the cheap, but don't think the work is worth investing in the second game. And these trends continue over time, not just the early days with all the issues.

I'm an OG, but I'm not a purist. I would be all for "new and improved" if the "improved" meant staying within the spirit of the original game and actually targeting some of the flaws in the original. But, EE is mostly just EasyTutu+UB (and bit of extra content that's irrelevant) with a different veneer. If they had, for example, done some work on the encounter design and steered it away from twinky munchkinism into a more classic 2e AD&D vibe, I would have respected the hell out of them for it and given it a shot. But, it was just another missed opportunity.
 

OrlonKronsteen

Habitué
Messages
126
That was a great video, Fandraxx. Thanks for that. I'm very impressed, both by your knowledge, and the quality of your narration (including the way you lay out your argument). I don't watch gaming videos (on YouTube, Twitch, or anywhere) so I had no idea you had a channel (I remember your user name from the Beamdog forums). I will definitely be watching more of them.

I also appreciate hearing opposing view points - in this case, from JustKnellar. A great conversation. And how refreshing that it's civil! A rare sight on the internet (I'll be sparing myself a trip to Reddit).
 
Top Bottom