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Let's come back to this question in 5 years
I bet people won't be able to live without it (as sad as it sounds).
Industry News / Upcoming Games
- Thread starter Antimatter
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I bet people won't be able to live without it (as sad as it sounds).
O_Bruce
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On the flip side, today there are people criticizing things like ray tracing or frame generation. The first for its relatively low benefit with heavy performance cost, the second for being fake and affecting how game developers tend to "optimize" the game nowadays.
With DLSS5, I see potential for something similar. Why would game development focus on art direction, when the AI filter will do the job for them? It would be "better" and more cost effective to jus do enough with game models and envoirment to serve as a placeholder for AI. Also, remember, Nvidia, as well as game developers, such as Bethesda, claims DLSS5 will be optional. This is probably true, although if my prediction is correct, future games might look straight up terrible without AI slop on, simply because without the filter, everything will be just a guideline for AI.
With DLSS5, I see potential for something similar. Why would game development focus on art direction, when the AI filter will do the job for them? It would be "better" and more cost effective to jus do enough with game models and envoirment to serve as a placeholder for AI. Also, remember, Nvidia, as well as game developers, such as Bethesda, claims DLSS5 will be optional. This is probably true, although if my prediction is correct, future games might look straight up terrible without AI slop on, simply because without the filter, everything will be just a guideline for AI.
Chronicler
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It sounds like the hardware requirements are still far too prohibitive to treat DLSS5 as a default. That demo was running on over ten thousand dollars worth of hardware i read.
But I could definitely see that happening someday.
But I could definitely see that happening someday.
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Seems the Nvidia boss doubled down, causing even more criticism. It's never good to tell users "you're wrong".
Chronicler
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Living every retail workers fantasy. "The customer is wrong and I'm gonna say it to their face!"
Not gonna make his product any more popular though.
Not gonna make his product any more popular though.
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Seems the Nvidia boss doubled down, causing even more criticism. It's never good to tell users "you're wrong".
I told you, they won't back down. If anything, they will force players to use it (eg. by limiting the number of GPU available on the market and advertising NVIDIA GeForce as an alternative).
O_Bruce
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@Cahir I think someone mentioned this here already, but the presentation Nvidia did was rendered using 2 high-end GPUs, one responsible for the game, the other for their DLSS5 filter. Forcing average consumer to use this technology seems to be out of touch, considering not only the shortage of GPUs done by Nvdidia themselves (by turning their back on the consumers, focusing on GPUs for fata centers, and re-introducing low-end outdated GPUs back to the marker), and the fact that typical consumer wouldn't find 2 high end GPUs affordable. Not in several years at least.
But if you consider Nvidia and other trash companies like them could run "your" games on their systems, then stream the result to "your" PC via subcription service, then it starts making more sense. Basically, techno-feudalism. You own nothing and regularly pay your technological overlords.
But if you consider Nvidia and other trash companies like them could run "your" games on their systems, then stream the result to "your" PC via subcription service, then it starts making more sense. Basically, techno-feudalism. You own nothing and regularly pay your technological overlords.
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Here are some insights about the tech, per good (yes, they still exist!) journalists at medium.com:
- It's a 2D AI Filter. Input is only color buffer & motion vectors. The model doesn't see geometry, lights, PBR properties, normals, anything
- Extremely minimal "artistic control". You can turn things on/off or mix with alpha blending and control color grading and that's it NVIDIA says they're listening to devs about extra controls but IMO high-level, subtle knobs (like prompts to a diffusion app) are very unlikely.
- What the AI does is *inference*. It looks at the pixels of a jacket and recognizes leather. It looks at the pixels of shadows and reflections and guesses where the lights are, their intensity, color, etc. It figures out the 3D shape of objects by their contours, shadows, etc.
- Then it proceeds using those guesses to re-render the scene. If the guesses are good, the result can be a lot better than the original (at least for some definitions of better i.e. more realistic and detailed).
- Every scene/game had VERY simple illumination; often just ambient light. Sun/outdoors. They didn't pick their usual Path Traced demos with tons of light sources and emissives. I bet the model isn't even close to do all the guesswork for this. Especially without SSR effects.
- It can't even handle any fast moving object wells, but to be fair I don't know if those catastrophic frames in the FIFA demo should be blamed on the upscaler, FG, or the new AI filter. All of them have trouble with big disocclusions and very fast things. AI is not magic.
Thread on Twitter.
So basically, it's bad.
- It's a 2D AI Filter. Input is only color buffer & motion vectors. The model doesn't see geometry, lights, PBR properties, normals, anything
- Extremely minimal "artistic control". You can turn things on/off or mix with alpha blending and control color grading and that's it NVIDIA says they're listening to devs about extra controls but IMO high-level, subtle knobs (like prompts to a diffusion app) are very unlikely.
- What the AI does is *inference*. It looks at the pixels of a jacket and recognizes leather. It looks at the pixels of shadows and reflections and guesses where the lights are, their intensity, color, etc. It figures out the 3D shape of objects by their contours, shadows, etc.
- Then it proceeds using those guesses to re-render the scene. If the guesses are good, the result can be a lot better than the original (at least for some definitions of better i.e. more realistic and detailed).
- Every scene/game had VERY simple illumination; often just ambient light. Sun/outdoors. They didn't pick their usual Path Traced demos with tons of light sources and emissives. I bet the model isn't even close to do all the guesswork for this. Especially without SSR effects.
- It can't even handle any fast moving object wells, but to be fair I don't know if those catastrophic frames in the FIFA demo should be blamed on the upscaler, FG, or the new AI filter. All of them have trouble with big disocclusions and very fast things. AI is not magic.
Thread on Twitter.
So basically, it's bad.
Black Elk
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I miss the sprites with the low to no rez faces. Fidelity and the cinematic/cartoon presentation is just becoming increasingly boring to me. When I compare BG1/2 to BG3, Solasta to Solasta II, Resident Evil 1 to Resident Evil 4, the little low poly block faces seem charming now in a way that the filtered up faces don't and probably never could. Like for starters they just don't provide a sufficient number of options and never enough heads or body types and such to fit the bill. I'd rather see no face, than a face that rubs me the wrong way, or just a decent back or top of the head since that's all we usually see during gameplay when all the action is happening. Like in Solasta II for example, I spend maybe an hour trying to find a face that doesn't annoy me for the custom character. I think every RPG should do a sort of faceless ninja mask like Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes or Sub Zero and Scorpion etc and then I would probably just always choose that option and they could save countless hours. I would rather just have a way to choose fun ninja colors on the fly and not worry about the faces anymore hehe. Basically I want a no AI downscaler I guess lol
Chronicler
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Sprite art tends to be what I get nostalgic about.
Booted up Final Fantasy Tactics Advance for the first time in a while recently, and sprite art was getting so beautiful towards the tail end of its use. The hardware was allowing for more elaborate sprites and the artists were getting better at working within that medium.
Then everybody started using polygons just because they're more hardware intensive, and thus assumed to be inherently better. A lot of the time it was incredibly vibrant pixel art being traded out for completely lifeless and dull 3d models. I think the Pokemon franchise has only very recently started creating 3d art that's charming in the way their pixel art used to be for example. There was a very prolonged awkward stage that I think the franchise is just now exiting.
Booted up Final Fantasy Tactics Advance for the first time in a while recently, and sprite art was getting so beautiful towards the tail end of its use. The hardware was allowing for more elaborate sprites and the artists were getting better at working within that medium.
Then everybody started using polygons just because they're more hardware intensive, and thus assumed to be inherently better. A lot of the time it was incredibly vibrant pixel art being traded out for completely lifeless and dull 3d models. I think the Pokemon franchise has only very recently started creating 3d art that's charming in the way their pixel art used to be for example. There was a very prolonged awkward stage that I think the franchise is just now exiting.
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Now I know what I experienced many times, notably after CP2077 and KCD2. Post-game depression. I still think KCD2's one is active for me.
www.ign.com
The study, published in January's edition of Current Psychology and obtained by IGN, claims to be the first-ever quantitative measure of post-game depression. The researchers conducted two studies with 373 participants and drilled down into four subscales of the phenomenon: Game-related Ruminations, Challenging End of Experience, Necessity of Repeating the Game, and Media Anhedonia, which is the term given to the inability to experience pleasure from activities that are usually enjoyable.
"Despite the widespread discussion of this phenomenon on platforms such as social media and YouTube, there is a notable absence of scientific investigation," the paper explains. The most comprehensive insight into this topic thus far had been provided by Piotr Klimczyk, who explored P-GD back in 2023 and found those four main aspects related to P-GD.
"The uniqueness was primarily associated with being a one-of-a-kind game that pushed the boundaries of its genre or with the richness of its story and characters, making the experience deeply emotional," the paper explains. "Some felt the ending came too soon, while others struggled to accept that the game actually concludes (experiencing the end of a game-related experience as challenging). Then came the realization that there would never be another first playthrough (being confronted with the impossibility of another first playthrough), and with it, the feeling that the game could never again evoke the same level of tension, joy, or sadness. These feelings lingered for days or even weeks, resulting in media anhedonia – no other video game or form of entertainment seemed capable of filling that void, so to speak."
"We observed positive correlations between the intensity of post-game depression and stronger depressive symptoms, tendency to rumination, and disturbances in emotional processing, as well as with lower well-being. Finally, role-playing games have been revealed to evoke stronger post-game depression than other games."
New Scientific Study Concludes 'Post-Game Depression' Is Real, and It's RPGs That Have the Biggest Effect on Us
You know that feeling of simultaneous delight and dismay you get when you finally roll the credits on a really good game? Well, a new report claims that that feeling is not only real, but has a name, too: "post-game depression."
The study, published in January's edition of Current Psychology and obtained by IGN, claims to be the first-ever quantitative measure of post-game depression. The researchers conducted two studies with 373 participants and drilled down into four subscales of the phenomenon: Game-related Ruminations, Challenging End of Experience, Necessity of Repeating the Game, and Media Anhedonia, which is the term given to the inability to experience pleasure from activities that are usually enjoyable.
"Despite the widespread discussion of this phenomenon on platforms such as social media and YouTube, there is a notable absence of scientific investigation," the paper explains. The most comprehensive insight into this topic thus far had been provided by Piotr Klimczyk, who explored P-GD back in 2023 and found those four main aspects related to P-GD.
"The uniqueness was primarily associated with being a one-of-a-kind game that pushed the boundaries of its genre or with the richness of its story and characters, making the experience deeply emotional," the paper explains. "Some felt the ending came too soon, while others struggled to accept that the game actually concludes (experiencing the end of a game-related experience as challenging). Then came the realization that there would never be another first playthrough (being confronted with the impossibility of another first playthrough), and with it, the feeling that the game could never again evoke the same level of tension, joy, or sadness. These feelings lingered for days or even weeks, resulting in media anhedonia – no other video game or form of entertainment seemed capable of filling that void, so to speak."
"We observed positive correlations between the intensity of post-game depression and stronger depressive symptoms, tendency to rumination, and disturbances in emotional processing, as well as with lower well-being. Finally, role-playing games have been revealed to evoke stronger post-game depression than other games."
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That may be true. I felt something like that after finishing Red Dead Redemption 2.Now I know what I experienced many times, notably after CP2077 and KCD2. Post-game depression. I still think KCD2's one is active for me.
New Scientific Study Concludes 'Post-Game Depression' Is Real, and It's RPGs That Have the Biggest Effect on Us
You know that feeling of simultaneous delight and dismay you get when you finally roll the credits on a really good game? Well, a new report claims that that feeling is not only real, but has a name, too: "post-game depression."
The study, published in January's edition of Current Psychology and obtained by IGN, claims to be the first-ever quantitative measure of post-game depression. The researchers conducted two studies with 373 participants and drilled down into four subscales of the phenomenon: Game-related Ruminations, Challenging End of Experience, Necessity of Repeating the Game, and Media Anhedonia, which is the term given to the inability to experience pleasure from activities that are usually enjoyable.
"Despite the widespread discussion of this phenomenon on platforms such as social media and YouTube, there is a notable absence of scientific investigation," the paper explains. The most comprehensive insight into this topic thus far had been provided by Piotr Klimczyk, who explored P-GD back in 2023 and found those four main aspects related to P-GD.
"The uniqueness was primarily associated with being a one-of-a-kind game that pushed the boundaries of its genre or with the richness of its story and characters, making the experience deeply emotional," the paper explains. "Some felt the ending came too soon, while others struggled to accept that the game actually concludes (experiencing the end of a game-related experience as challenging). Then came the realization that there would never be another first playthrough (being confronted with the impossibility of another first playthrough), and with it, the feeling that the game could never again evoke the same level of tension, joy, or sadness. These feelings lingered for days or even weeks, resulting in media anhedonia – no other video game or form of entertainment seemed capable of filling that void, so to speak."
"We observed positive correlations between the intensity of post-game depression and stronger depressive symptoms, tendency to rumination, and disturbances in emotional processing, as well as with lower well-being. Finally, role-playing games have been revealed to evoke stronger post-game depression than other games."
Chronicler
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I think if you enjoy anything enough, it can be pretty depressing when it ends.
A good videogame, a good book, a good comic are I think the ones I've experienced, but I've heard others talk about getting depressed after the end of a great concert, or a cool convention, or a fun vacation.
That being said, games are sometimes unique in terms of the time investment they represent. Tales of Symphonia was one where I got pretty bummed out when it was over, and that first playthrough represented like a solid month of my life as a teen. I was obsessed with it during that month. It was all I thought about. Then when I finished I just immediately started a second playthrough on higher difficulty but it wasn't really the same anymore.
Comics can sometimes represent a significant time investment in their own way, in that you can follow a comic for a year and get depressed when it gets cancelled. But that's like, 5 minutes a month, every month. It's not really the same as a game that you can play continuously for 100 hours.
A good videogame, a good book, a good comic are I think the ones I've experienced, but I've heard others talk about getting depressed after the end of a great concert, or a cool convention, or a fun vacation.
That being said, games are sometimes unique in terms of the time investment they represent. Tales of Symphonia was one where I got pretty bummed out when it was over, and that first playthrough represented like a solid month of my life as a teen. I was obsessed with it during that month. It was all I thought about. Then when I finished I just immediately started a second playthrough on higher difficulty but it wasn't really the same anymore.
Comics can sometimes represent a significant time investment in their own way, in that you can follow a comic for a year and get depressed when it gets cancelled. But that's like, 5 minutes a month, every month. It's not really the same as a game that you can play continuously for 100 hours.
OrlonKronsteen
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BG3 did it to me.
O_Bruce
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I never had a feeling of ahedonia after finishing videogame or manga series or film or tv show. They often left impression, which depends on the work of art in question, but not depression or ahedonia.
I think the closest to that for me was ending of Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire. I think it had everything to do with a deep impression that what my character and their companions did through the game amounted to nothing: most of the jurney could have been skipped, and the end would still remain the same, since
I think a lack of meaning perceived by me was crucial there.
I think the closest to that for me was ending of Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire. I think it had everything to do with a deep impression that what my character and their companions did through the game amounted to nothing: most of the jurney could have been skipped, and the end would still remain the same, since
all that mattered at the end was the conversation with Eothas
OrlonKronsteen
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Apparently the VP of Franchise for D&D has apologized to Luke Gygax for Gary's treatment, and has admitted that Wizards has 'lost its way.' Interesting. I guess they've alienated the mature fanbase to the extent that sales are slumping.