Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous General Discussion, Playthroughs and Minimal/No Reload Thread

[alice_ashpool]

if there is one thing WotR excels at, its overwhelming spellcasting. Still can't believe people are worrying about raising AC rather than raising 30+ skeletons.

Overwhelming Spell Confusion, Phantasmal Putrifaction and Maximised Flame Strike. Follow up with Phantasmal Web, more Flame Strike, Dominate Person and Sorcerous Reflex 2x Animate Dead from Cam. Meanwhile I suppose Arue and Wenduag can do some ranged stuff too. Such fun.

 

[alice_ashpool]

Enchantment as a spell school is one of the funniest and I can understand why it is not popular. At level 11 at the moment, and either the big bad enemy is vulnerable to one of Hideous Laughter, Constricting Coils, Overwhelming Grief or, in a pinch: Confusion, in which case cast until it sticks and the encounter is almost over. Or else it is not, in which case you get to twiddle your thumbs and maybe cast some Fire Snake or something.

The Derakni Devastator in Wintersun was the funniest yet - an encounter I have read people rage about so much, for me the 2nd Constricting held and the skeletons just chop chop chopped.

The Duel in Wintersun was tough though, Dragon was not vulnerable to anything afaik so had to resort to Demon Charging around to kill it

 

[mlnevese]

This is a curious game regarding AC... you best option is to not use armor

 

[alice_ashpool]

Thought I would write a bit more about the Spellcaster-heavy playthrough.

First off, the MC, Fey Bloodline Overwhelming Mage Archetype Sorceress very similar to my Kingmaker play-thorugh, except Half-Elf for starting with 21 Charisma
Half-Elf gives access to additional feats, one for +1DC to Enchantment and one for +2 Spell Pen. Couple that with Demon Path for more DC boosts, and Free Action AoE Save debuffing soon.

Main things are super high DC Confusion and enough single target paralysing spells to render an endless series of non-immune targets helpless. She has Red Salamander ring so that she is not entirely useless when no spells work and a Spellbook half-filled with joke spells which only have very specific places where they are useful - Hold Person anyone? Hilariously OP when enemies are vulnerable, weakest party member when not. Has a sideline in hitting things ineffectively with a huge Greatsword. Eventually going to be Abjuration Pro too for cracking open Freedom of Movement.

Mythics: Abundant Casting, Mythic Spell Focus Enchantment, Greater Abundant Casting

Daeran is an AoE monster now that he has Flame-strike. I love that Spell. He is basically going all in on Evocation. Key things are Archon's Aura and AoE Evocation, and Skeletons, lots and lots of skeletons. Maximised Skeletons. Sideline in spamming Arrow of Law.

Mythics: Abundant Casting, Mythic Spell Focus Evocation, Greater Abundant Casting.

Camellia She has little spellcasting offensive power. She does a bit of everything but is primarily a Summoner/Dead Animator, with enough Summons/Skeletons and to choke up the entire battlefield - she also carries plenty of buffs to supplement Daeran. She also represents most of the parties Melee power so tends to sweep up stuff when necessary. Also I have her on Evil Eye duty - She does far more than Ember can: Summons, Debuffs, Melee, Buffs, the whole works, but lacks any sort of specialism and no offensive spells. Has the highest AC of anyone but mostly hangs at the back and most things that take a swing at her only get one chance before they get Constricting Coiled.

Mythics: Abundant Casting, Sorcerous Reflex, Greater Abundant Casting.

Nenio The second half of the Will Save Crushing Duo. Nothing holds up to Phantasmal Putrefaction and Phantasmal Web - and Phantasmal Putrefaction debuffs Wisdom meaning the next salvo of spells hits even harder. Once she gets Sorcerous Reflex nothing will stop us.

Mythics: Abundant Casting, Mythic Spell Focus Illusion, Greater Abundant Casting

Wenduag Standard Dual Axe Throwing for blending Held/Webbed enemies

Mythics: Ranging Shots, Mythic Rapid Shot, Inspirational Leader (lol)

Arushalae Standard Longbow Wielding Ranger for blending Held/Webbed enemies

Mythics: Ranging Shots, Mythic Rapid Shot, Cleaving Shot.


Stupid Tactics include: Life Bubble then stand in Mind Fog, Protection from Fire on Skeletons, Dimension Door Foolishness, Demonic Charge, Bugging the Game by Dominate Person-ing Bosses, Everything that comes with having 2 people who can cast Animate Dead

 

[alice_ashpool]

Here's a little something, that really makes the WotR Demon Path Half-Succubus power fantasy click:

It might be niche, and it might take longer than just dropping Fire from Heaven, but there is nothing quite like ordering the Ash Giant Leader to slaughter his underlings using the power of magic. And with a DC of 37, there is not much that doesn't do what you tell it to.

Plus relying on CC + Summons means you don't have to play the buff game most of the time.

 

[alice_ashpool]

I have been going all in with Daeran + Fire this time and he is an absolute monster and it is a crime to every use him to heal in combat unless it is an absolute emergency. Currently in the midgame and he is letting off Hellfire Rays while my MC and Nenio can also fire Hellfire Rays. Since he is 3/4BAB you don't need Precise Shot at all by mid game since with a Dex Buff and targetting touch he is 10/10. Flame Strikes for AoE and if Touch AC is too high.

Another early-game "trap" for him is that ascended Element is unneeded, at least until much later - Better to get mythic Spell Pen and Mythic Spell Focus first, plus Abundant Casting and he will overpower Elemental Resistances very easily. Can take Ascended later. Now, you end up with >40 "Blasts" of fire and death and you are set for never using a crossbow again.

He has it a bit rough until mid act-3, but by taking Arrow of Law and Abundant Casting as first mythic he can do serious damage early on. Basically he can pump out so much damage it is unreal.

////

Demonic Charge is also super funny now since you can use it to move a long way, deal AoE damage, proc your Demonic Aspect aura debuffs, and fire off a spell in the same round. Its real "teleports behind you" stuff.

 

[mlnevese]

It's as easy to go wrong with Daeran as it is with Ember... her sleep ability is not subject to spell resistance, for instance, just save, so just put our enemy to sleep and finish him

 

[alice_ashpool]

Having now played most of Act 3 for the first time since close after release I am reminded that it has some of the best stuff in the game: Blackwater, Wintersun, Dragon, the ending; packaged within something that just feels so clunky.

I actually really like kingdom management in Kingmaker, I think it really adds to the game and is an essential part of the complete package, but the Overworld Map in WotR just feels like such a chore in comparison - and a big part of this is the default slow movement speed and the general faffing around that is required in act 3 and act 5. The game needs some form of crusade leadership/management imo, but I wish it was a Kingmaker style command table management, and that you liberated areas like you claimed areas in Kingmaker. I could even get behind the Army management style format if it didn't feel so unstructured and decoupled from the game in 2 of its 3 implementations. Act 2 actually does the whole thing well because you feel like you are advancing on Drezen, pushing towards a goal, your camp moves forward, it triggers Story events as you push deeper - in Act 3 it just feels like milling around spending a lot of time moving from A to B and back to A then to B+ and back to A...

A shame, since the model of Act 2 applied to 3 and 5, coupled with anexing/capturing/liberating regions could make the whole thing far more integrated and feel much more satisfactory.

 

[alice_ashpool]

Here is an example of the power of Enchantment, and how there is often a solution if you take all the enchantment spells. - specifically this show the importance of the spell "Overwhelming Grief". We see here that Devarra, a level 25 dragon, is immune to Sleep, Prone, Paralyze and Petrified. This rules out Constricting Coils/Hold Monster. It is vulnerable to Confusion, but hitting a Confusion still means a 50% chance the enemy will attack something. However, Overwhelming Grief is an Emotion-style spell which does not paralyze or incapacitate, but it does stop any actions. It also makes enemies flat footed (so vulnerable to sneak attacks) and gives them an additional AC penalty:

My Spellcaster-Camellia lays down the Evil Eye, and Aru has the gloves that auto-sicken on declaring a quarry. I could have been using 1 additional item for +1DC and Daeran could have moved up for a chance with Archon's Aura, but neither are needed. Unable to free itself from the Grief without a Natural 20, and Kali can just cue up another to put it backdown if that happens, or layer Confusion on top. And so my near-unbuffed Greybor could just shuffle over there to beat it down:

The Half-Succubus Kali now just waves her hand lazily and even dragons burst into tears. Never have I been so reminded of that cut-scene in BG2 were Irenicus tempts the Bhaalspawn: "Why do you stand for this? Why do you submit to the flesh, when death is bred in your bones? Do you realize the power you might hold? When the world of flesh is beneath you, even creatures mysterious and magical will fall!"

 

[alice_ashpool]

Here is another example, this time of the humble spell "Hold Person", A spell no "sane" WotR player would take right, due to the Demons... However, there are a few areas where it comes into it's own. Blackwater is one of them. There are few areas that seem to generate so many complaints as this one - Regeneration, High AC and high health seem to irritate people used to just hitting things I suppose. But here the Enchanter is in her element. Even Cyborg enemies fall to the power of Will targetting spells:

In this battle a small cast of Animate Dead held of the front line as Kali the Enchanter systematically went through each enemy casting Hold Person on them. No DC buffs were needed because their will saves really are very low. Requiring a Natural 20 to save all four were duely held. AC is not much of an issue anymore and they were turned to augmented trash. Here is Kali the 1/2BAB Sorceress hitting these enemies with her -5AB Gore attack:

Here is a second example, using Dominate Person, a very under-rated spell due to the way the AI works. Not only does a pre-emptive Dominate get around its Full Round cast issue in RTwP, but it also directs all surrounding enemies onto the dominated one. Nothing quite like dominating the most difficult foe and watching the eother enemies do your work for you:

Some people complain that the game does not require tactical thinking, yet when presented with an area where such thinking comes into its own they complain that enemy AC is too high!

 

[mlnevese]

I'm playing Blackwater with my Barbarian Trickster right now... Nenio is casting Icy Prison on the demons while my party deals with the humans. Lightning is not a problem. Nenio will cast chain lightning or use a wand of call lightning. Then you find a bracer that can turn any spontaneous caster into a lightning shooting tower In my party it was Daeran who has stopped flame striking the enemies to fry them with lightning for a time

Freezing demons is almost as fun as frying them... I can imagine their look of surprise every time a fire spell actually hurts them

 

[alice_ashpool]

The Blackwater demons are tough for me, because they have high WIll Saves. I can put them down, but it requires a lot of resources. But once you get Stormlords Resolve being able to call down Lighning-infused Flame Strikes and Chain Lightning is great. The toughest -were the Vampiric-touch spamming Succubi since they have Will saves in the +20, which is fine for dealing with a boss, but having lots of them means you can't get the action economy to CC them all with single target Enchantments.

The Blackwater Chief was duely Dominate Person-ed though, so the Augmented Demons killed them. Which is satisfying.

 

[mlnevese]

The Blackwater demons are tough for me, because they have high WIll Saves. I can put them down, but it requires a lot of resources. But once you get Stormlords Resolve being able to call down Lighning-infused Flame Strikes and Chain Lightning is great. The toughest -were the Vampiric-touch spamming Succubi since they have Will saves in the +20, which is fine for dealing with a boss, but having lots of them means you can't get the action economy to CC them all with single target Enchantments.

The Blackwater Chief was duely Dominate Person-ed though, so the Augmented Demons killed them. Which is satisfying.

I block them with undead or mirror imaged/blurred characters

 

[Cahir]

When I came to Blackwater I felt almost underleveled. I don't remember any other location that made me feel equally miserable. IIRC those monsters in there have had even Touch AC on the level that made my team hard to hit them with ray spells. Boy, this was a real slugfest. I felt good, beating it... felt tough. But as a location it was not one of my favorites.

 

[mlnevese]

When I came to Blackwater I felt almost underleveled. I don't remember any other location that made me feel equally miserable. IIRC those monsters in there have had even Touch AC on the level that made my team hard to hit them with ray spells. Boy, this was a real slugfest. I felt good, beating it... felt tough. But as a location it was not one of my favorites.

I actually started another character just to have a break from Blackwater... between the die only with electricity critters and all the walking around back and forth looking for a way to open all the doors it was more than irritating me Now that I have a tactic that works I'm still dealing with the walking around... it will be one of those dungeons I won't be eager to play again

 

[m7600]

Just started to play Pathfinder: Kingmaker a few days ago, and I think it's really good so far. What I like about it the most is the option to play turn-based combat or real time with pause. You can even switch between the two in the middle of combat. For now, I'm sticking purely to turn-based combat, I just enjoy it more that way.

My party killed a lot of Giant Centipedes today, including a Tremendous Centipede.

 

[Antimatter]

Ohhh, that's so cool! It would be exciting to get occasional updates from you as you play the game! What is your main character? Who is in the party? Did that Tremendous Centipede have any chance?

 

[m7600]

Charname is a fighter. I have Linzi, Valerie and Amiri in the party. They're at level 3 right now. The Tremendous Centipede was definitely a challenge, those critters have some nasty venom. But the combat options in turn-based mode aren't that different from The Temple of Elemental Evil, or from tabletop D&D for that matter. So I kinda knew a few things, like using the five-foot step for avoiding attacks of opportunity, switching to "fight defensively" after attacking, that sort of stuff.

 

[mlnevese]

Poison and other crippling effects are a pain until you get the spells or itens necessary to deal with them.

@m7600 I hope you enjoy Pathfinder. The sequel is really becoming one of my favorite games of all time. I just love the "How am I supposed to deal with this" encounters Ive been having. And anyone who knows me know I prefer low level adventures so the fact I'm enjoying an epic level game says a lot about it. Turn based mode makes everything a little bit easier. It's easier to control your spell use and consumables, for instance. I only use real time when I'm fighting something that has no chance to hurt me

 

[alice_ashpool]

Poison and other crippling effects are a pain until you get the spells or itens necessary to deal with them.

Ive seen this referred to as the "Half-life" school of design, where you face challenges which you do not posess hard counters to which makes gaining those counters later all the more rewarding.