What is an indie game for you?

Antimatter

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There is a discussion on Twitter about whether BG3 can be considered an indie for the purpose of the Best Indie awards. Then the question goes this way: is Dave the Diver an indie? What about games by Valve or CDPR?

What are the requirements? No external publisher? A small team size? Exactly how small? Game's price? Anything else?
 

OrlonKronsteen

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Indie games - hell, indie movies, and indie-anything, for that matter - are made without big corporate backing. Therefore they don’t face the enormous pressures to appeal to mass markets. This gives them more freedom to create art for art’s sake, more freedom to take chances and experiment.
 

Antimatter

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Indie games - hell, indie movies, and indie-anything, for that matter - are made without big corporate backing. Therefore they don’t face the enormous pressures to appeal to mass markets. This gives them more freedom to create art for art’s sake, more freedom to take chances and experiment.
Right. But the devil (as always) is in the details. Would you call games like Dave the Diver indie? It's made with big corporate backing as the game's publisher is very huge. Would you call BG3 indie? No big corpo has been involved, but its production values are on the level of AAA games.
 

alice_ashpool

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Essentially the category is one of convenience, not easily definable, or even particularly useful as soon as a point is reached where arguments arise about what it means. A more "natural" (and I use that term loosely) taxonomy might be to look at capital input into production as @OrlonKronsteen alludes to, though at their point a second morass appears as to what defines "big" and "corporate" in the sense of "big corporate"...

If a publisher is paying a single person or a small team to produce a product they are still operating under "big capital strictures", even thought their team is small, while a huge game with a huge team operating under crowdfunding... etc etc. Is the capital external or internal... ad infinitum et nauseam; and now if have led myself to a true gordian knot.

Of course such discussion is of little interest to those who want "their" champion to enter the arena of a particular game award category. Really i think the catagory, as far as awards should go should be reserved for small teams and one-person bands. Just set a cap on number of devs: "Best game made by a team <6"

In summary I have no answer.
 

OrlonKronsteen

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Right. But the devil (as always) is in the details. Would you call games like Dave the Diver indie? It's made with big corporate backing as the game's publisher is very huge. Would you call BG3 indie? No big corpo has been involved, but its production values are on the level of AAA games.
Good questions! Hmm... Until this moment I'd never heard of Dave the Diver, so I can't answer that one.

Larian is an interesting case as they're a big studio (big enough to produce AAA games, as you say), but not quite big enough to be classified as a big corp. Could you say they're on their way to becoming a big corp - or that they have designs on becoming one - by producing commercially successful games? As for BG3, that again is its own case. I would definitely not call it indie - whether or not it was produced by an independent studio. BG3 is a corporate product, through and through, by virtue of having used the BG trademark to market the game and drive sales - especially in light of the fact that it's produced by entirely different developers/artists than the original games were. It is, by analogy, similar to getting the Rolling Stones to make a Pink Floyd album. BG3 is a BG game in name only, and using that name guaranteed a certain number of sales before the developers ever typed a line of code. Was Larian pressured by anyone, i.e. Wizards, to make BG3 as opposed to an original, D&D IP? Does anyone on here have insight into that?

Note: I am not saying BG3 is a bad game, or trying to troll anyone here. I know the 'BG3, yeah or nay' argument has gone on and on and everyone's sick of it. BG3, by the sounds of it, is a great game on it's own merits. But it remains a fact that the studio used that trademark, and that will affect their legacy.

All this brings to mind another aspect of the corporate/indie debate (which, as I suggested in my last post, applies to movies and other products besides games): there is a perception that corporations are big business sell-outs, producing pabulum for mass consumption, while indie studios make real art/quality products. While this is often the case, it isn't always the case. Major studios can produce great movies and games - real art, as it were. So that distinction can fall short as a definition.
 

alice_ashpool

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At the risk of de-railing I have found that my own way around endless arguing about whether video games are art is just to fall absolutely on the side that they are not. They are a mass culture product of mass society for mass consumption and Hannah Arendt's statement that art is non-functional, not consumed and born out of a human desire for permeance in a Heraclitan universe of eternal change precludes any categorisation of software commodities for mass sale as art. That doesn't mean they are not enjoyable to consume.

sorry.
 

InGameScientist

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I think as many of you have already said, the indie or not argument is largely a matter of team size. Compared to the one or few-person teams out there, Larian is a 450-person company -- not really small by any standard. I lean most on the origins of the word indie -- one or a few that represent one.
 

alice_ashpool

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There might be another point that "good game made independently of [corporate investment etc]" might have some moral appeal, but "good game made with just a few people in an era when (AAA style) games these days take hundreds of people and tens of millions of $$$" has some sort aesthetic and kudos appeal. In fact you could make the semi joke that it's actually harder to make a good game when the big shareholders want their piece of pie, as has also been alluded to!
 

m7600

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I'd perhaps echo what @alice_ashpool said about video games not being art. Lately I've been entertaining the thought that games in general, not just video games, are not art. Take chess, for example. Sure, each wooden piece is a miniature sculpture, and therefore a work of art in its own right. But chess itself is not a sculpture, nor is it some other kind of art. It's a game. Or consider a card game like poker. Yes, the jacks, queens and kings are usually nicely drawn and painted, they're illustrations and therefore works of art. But poker itself is not an illustration, nor any other type of art. It's a game.

Games use art, but they're not themselves art. Admittedly, there are some tough cases, for example when a video game is almost indistinguishable from a Choose Your Own Adventure novel, which is arguably the case with computer RPGs, especially the ones that lean heavily on story and dialogue.

I may be wrong about all of this though, maybe games are indeed art and I'm just saying a bunch of nonsense.

On the issue of what is the definition of an indie game, I'd be hard pressed to provide a definition that is entirely free from counter-examples, but I'll give it a try. Intuitively, I'd echo what has already been said by others: 1) a game made by a small team, 2) with scarce funding, and 3) without corporate ties. Dave the Diver does not qualify because it doesn't fulfill the third condition. The same goes for Baldur's Gate 3. Yes, one might say that Larian is not a big corporation. But Wizards of the Coast is, and that is the corporate tie in this example. In other words, Larian worked with an IP that belongs to a big corporation. That is enough for the game to not be indie, because it's not independent from Wizards of the Coast.
 

Black Elk

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That's a fun take! haha

If only because I wish Art could just be a Science again, which it definitely was for about 5 centuries there, going pretty strong. The sort of thing that builds on previous learning, and which can actually be taught, or at least learned. Then it kinda morphed into philosophy and has mostly remained there in many circles, unless we count the popular forms. Arendt's Cathedral has got some charm, but in context, it was all already kinda blow'd up by then right? Like well in advance of the critical commentary about what went down.

I do think games are art though, or at least can be art, colloquially at any rate, in much the same way that plays by Aristophanes are still art, or cinema and theater can be art (either could be artfully executed, or not). I actually consider cinema to be among the highest expressions of the artistic spirit ever achieved when it works. It's demonstrably sorta the only the only form of art that most people are still willing to pay for. Everyone expects text and images in the free for all, but at least with a time signature, creatives can still make a couple pennies here and there. I also consider Centipede to be fine art though! So go figure heheh. Take it well seasoned, with many grains of salt I guess.

For me art's not all that complicated, unless we make so. Doesn't need to be quite so lofty really. If we just keep to the ars, it means skill, so anything executed with sufficient skill I think could lay claim. Indie is tougher though, cause like if it was a band, you'd probably go by the size of the venues where they're playing or whether anyone had heart it played on the radio yet. I mean sorta, right?

Larian just packed a stadium pretty much, so I think maybe not so much now, or anymore. They might have been able to swing that if it was EA of the year or one of those community categories, but otherwise they scaled up pretty major and they've got all the D&D FR BG regalia now. Puts it in a different tier probably, like just from that. I think they should just go for broke and up with the big dragons, as like an aspirational thing. I think it probably does matter who takes the laurels sometimes just to keep pushing it forward. Indies gotta cut off somewhere though right? Maybe at 100?

centipede.png


hehehe

ps. To me it's easier when art is sort of a qualifier, rather than an abstract noun. So acting in a play by itself doesn't make the play art. Just like the simple act of painting doesn't transform the result automatically into art, neither would piling on a bunch of ancillary finery or buttressing it with intellectual scaffolds or staging barrowed from other arenas, so kinda the same sort of deal there when dealing with it in an very abstract or conceptual frame. Like it just doesn't lend itself all that well, in the absence of concrete examples and exemplars. For the chess example, or the game of chess not being art compared to the say a carved piece from the Trondheim where the artistry is evident, then you can compare that piece to some other carved piece from a century or somewhere else before that, and make a shot call on that one. If we knew who invented chess though, I don't know, I mean I probably would fold that into the ars? Cause it is brilliant and skillfull!

Elegant in what it abstracts and omits, geometrically harmonious, composed within the square, figuratively relevant, contrasts the opposites, is essentially mathematical and definitely visual. Like it has all the hallmarks there, but granted, that's stretching the ars a bit. I was thinking more like is it visual art, BG3 I mean, which becomes hard because we're all primed for individualism on that score. Also the idea that commodifying art in a craven way is like villainous, but to patron it is worthwhile, add to that the conceit that it somehow requires suffering or that sort of pathos to be deemed authentic, which is often put on it too, and then all the while it's just hard for the actual artists making stuff to get their bread in addition to their art with all that stuff in play. Which would be nice! Like if they could get their bread too. But yeah, I don't know, the indie thing is harder lol
 
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Black Elk

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Pps. Post post script depression, but someone is legit about to spend billions of dollars (with a B!) in Paris, just to convince us that Rothko was the best thing since sliced bread?

And then I start to hyperventilate a little hehe. There's just so much money wrapped up in this now, that it somehow makes sense to spend a billion x3 to prop up the dead with that sort of chicanery?

Sorry not to fly off the tracks too hard, but seriously?

I mean I get it, cause after Arms and Drugs, Art is the big blackmarket Weekend at Bernie's where anything goes apparently, but I definitely don't get it. This is ridiculous!

Now I'm not saying dude didn't have some sort of talent, or that his son shouldn't be able to cash in somehow too. Or maybe in the sense that talent just means a bar of gold, sure, but talanton (the real weight, and true gravity) I just don't know on that one. It seems lightweight to me. Like do we really need that Hudson Hawk alchemy all over again? Lol

Artists should be able to answer the question when pressed, 'of what?' Cause then we could slice it up a bit heheh, but yeah waters are pretty muddy. I think its a term best applied lovingly to others maybe, but without getting stuck too hard in the mire of ego, or lost in dragons' hordes, which it always kinda does, sadly. Hehe Night capp!

 
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m7600

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That was an awesome post @Black Elk, let me see if I can offer some replies.

I do think games are art though, or at least can be art, colloquially at any rate, in much the same way that plays by Aristophanes are still art, or cinema and theater can be art (either could be artfully executed, or not). I actually consider cinema to be among the highest expressions of the artistic spirit ever achieved when it works. It's demonstrably sorta the only the only form of art that most people are still willing to pay fo

The comparison between video games and cinema is, I think, the strongest argument for video games as art. If this is how we conceptualize them, then I would agree that video games are indeed art, no doubt. When photography was first invented, there was a similar debate regarding its artistic status, and the same thing happened when cinema was invented. But the problem with this line of reasoning, as far as I can tell, is that while it certainly applies to video games, it doesn't seem to apply to games in general. You made a case for considering chess as art:

For the chess example, or the game of chess not being art compared to the say a carved piece from the Trondheim where the artistry is evident, then you can compare that piece to some other carved piece from a century or somewhere else before that, and make a shot call on that one. If we knew who invented chess though, I don't know, I mean I probably would fold that into the ars? Cause it is brilliant and skillfull!

Elegant in what it abstracts and omits, geometrically harmonious, composed within the square, figuratively relevant, contrasts the opposites, is essentially mathematical and definitely visual. Like it has all the hallmarks there, but granted, that's stretching the ars a bit.

I never thought of chess that way. It's a brilliant defense. Still, I think that the original question persists: is every game an artwork? Let's consider, for example, rock-paper-scissors, or the game of tag, or hide-and-seek. Are those games artworks? Personally, I don't think so.

That being said, perhaps something can be both a game and an artwork at the same time. Perhaps these options don't need to be mutually exclusive. Something similar happens with sports vs games. For example, baseball. Is it a sport or a game? Arguably, it's both things. By comparison, is Baldur's Gate 2 an artwork or a game? Arguably again, it's both things. By contrast, rock-paper-scissors is exclusively a game, while Michelangelo's David is exclusively an artwork.

Chess is a more complicated case. I still think it's exclusively a game. But allow me to make a suggestion: to say that a certain "X" is not art does not diminish "X"'s value in any way, whatever "X" may be. Consider the following analogies. A molecule is made of atoms, but the molecule itself is not an atom. A living cell is made of molecules, but the living cell itself is not a molecule. An animal is made of cells, but the animal itself is not a cell. A word like "table" is made of letters, but the word "table" itself is not a letter. A sentence like "Today is Sunday" is made of words, but that sentence itself is not a word. In this sense, when I say that chess is not an artwork even though it is made of miniature artworks (i.e., wooden sculptures), that doesn't mean that I'm diminishing the game of chess in any way. And when I say that video games are not themselves artworks even though they are composed of artworks (music, illustrations, storytelling, etc.), that does not mean that I'm diminishing video games in any way. After all, no one (I hope) would say that we're diminishing molecules by saying that they're not themselves atoms even though they're composed of atoms, or that we're diminishing words themselves by claiming that they're not letters even though they're composed of letters.

Besides, why should games in general (not just video games) be artworks? Are we saying that games and art are somehow not on a par? Is the concept of art somehow superior to that of games? I would argue that games like hide-and-seek, tag, and rock-paper-scissor don't need to be artworks in order to be valuable, and that, in principle, the same goes for video games. In other words, if we subordinate the concept of games to the concept of art, then we're effectively saying that games, by themselves, have such a weak "identity", if you will, that we need to conceptualize them as artworks for them to have any value at all. And that, I think, is debatable. Games, pure games, are not inferior to art. They have their own identity and their own function, they don't need to be subordinated to some other branch of culture.
 
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InGameScientist

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What I haven't yet come across in our discussion of game is art (or not) is the perspective of the maker? Does art need to serve a purpose for it to be called art? Could art be an expression of the maker and so anything constructed, painted, photographed, videoed, coded that represents an expression of the artist, art?

If I apply expression to games, wouldn't we say that someone in a game of tag or chess, through their own creativity, express themselves by playing the game differently than another? I guess in that case, the art isn't in necessarily the game per se; the game becomes the medium on which the artist (player) expresses themselves?

Forgive me if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, it's quite late as I am typing this out lol
 

m7600

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I would challenge the admittedly customary assumption that art and expression necessarily go hand in hand, @InGameScientist. In some cases, yes, artists express themselves through their art. But I'd say that there are also some cases of non-artistic expressions, as well as some cases of non-expressive artworks.

Consider this very discussion. I'm expressing an opinion. But the mere fact that I'm expressing an opinion does not therefore turn that opinion into a work of art. When, in some other context, I'm expressing doubts, or concerns, I don't intend to turn my doubts or concerns into works of art. The upshot is that people can express themselves in non-artistic ways.

Conversely, it's possible to make an artwork without the desire or intention of expressing something. For example, I've always loved origami, and I still remember when I made my own design for a scorpion. It was a struggle, and it took a lot of trial and error. I was quite proud when I finally settled on a design that kinda worked. Now, what was I trying to express? Nothing, really. I just wanted to get the proportions and general features right, as in, it should have two claws, a stinger, eight legs, etc. So, it's possible to make non-expressive artworks.
 

Black Elk

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Does art need to serve a purpose for it to be called art? Could art be an expression of the maker and so anything constructed, painted, photographed, videoed, coded that represents an expression of the artist, art?


Oh my, I can just feel myself about to type for an hour! Apologies in advance if I get a little too into it sometimes haha. But in a way that is what Arendt was sorta driving at in some of her critical commentaries right? or Heidegger I suppose (it's somewhat unfair to pin them together, even if everyone always does, although not totally unfair hehe) but like if we start scrapping around in the diaries or at the time when the 'Question Concerning Technology' was kicking off. It's always tough to put a philosopher in a nutshell, since the process is sorta more important than what comes of it, but after you crack it open, dust off the Greek and really settle in, the basic kick there was a return to techne as a form of poesis. Or all artifacts as expressions of the ars, in exactly that sort of way, or with that sort of creative sensibility or sense of awe attending to it.

And then the terror and technophobia that follows, when that part is so readily dismissed after first introductions and things just become objects for use, emptied of meaning etc. Arendt I think is a bit more stoic about it, whereas with Heidegger you do get the sense (after all that word play) that he's basically just really bummed that we no longer marvel at techne or think of it in that way anymore. Both sorta obsessed with ontology or how it was abused in carving up the world to be readily understood and transacted. Of course there are later takedowns too with completely different tracts, cause in this style of philosophy origins are usually privileged and everyone wants to go back to first foundations right, or play with the philology there. So then we get another 50 years, at least for peeps who took that tradition seriously, to do something very similar for the other branches, in Ethics (say Levinas, who's always fun for stuff about the Eyes hehe) or others like say Wittgenstein logos on the other end of the spectrum, with an angle that's more like in search of exact language - the undercut there being something like, 'don't we already have a word for that though?' and then just sorta unravelling the semantics at play.

It's all good fun, but also philosophy really strains to account for itself sometimes in the realm of Beauty or the Beautiful, since the early Philosophers were all largely hostile to the Poets, from the first, and a sought a different valence for the conversation.

Broadly speaking the terrain was already sketched out by the time we get to characters like Plato or Aristotle musing on the subject, and those are sort of the foundations we are usually presented with, but it's all already syncretic at that point, like they're already all Multi-classing by then (to borrow a D&D concept). Which is why it's fun to read biographers like Diogenes for little glimpses on their precursors, who are more like the Class purists I guess hehe.

But their stuff only survives in fragmentary ways, so it's kinda hard to get much of a complete portrait on them really. As an undergrad I used to love all this stuff and thinking about it long nights. Like I even took the aesthetics emphasis cause I really wanted to try and figure some of this stuff out to see how it could maybe be applied to my interests, but it's so meandering and circuitous as a discipline. Ultimately Classics was more my speed, though I did nab that double major with Philosophy, before just bowing out and taking the more autodidactic approach to it. I'll still read along and try to keep up though. Honestly if it didn't require massive student loans here, I could have probably stuck it out and kept that going like Doctor Faustus, but for someone who enjoys visual art, the contemporary philosophy around it became really deflating after a few years in the thick of it.

Not to be overly dismissive of the Philosophy of Art writ large, but all that stuff about aporia, I mean it's pretty real. That's what happens if we lean hard into it. Like the entire philosophical project from earliest times was to break down the structures or the fundament and bring the thinker to the point where they're totally unmoored and back in the wilderness again. Then the options are basically 'leave 'em there' so they can discover their own wisdom unencumbered, or the do the sophist power play sort of thing and provide the ready answers to fill in the gaps that you just created with all those newly introduced doubts hehe.

Meanwhile in the arts and letters proper, there were all these convulsive things that happened particularly at the end of the 19th and early 20th century, and movements among artists which sought a much more egalitarian frame, one that gave primacy to expression as the main and most important thing, and to sort of validate a broader relativism there. It was deeply iconoclastic, which is kinda odd for the visual arts, but basically tearing down a lot of old gods and old patron saints to give us our new ones, and those are still ascendant. As a history, this was both exciting and wildly disruptive, pretty significant inversion of the earlier kick.

So a similar sort of aporia there too, when Visual Art started transforming into the Philosophy of Visual Art, which was gradual but also unrelenting. It basically remains there right now, at least at the level of major galleries and museums and auction houses, the broader public discourse, and this is in part because so much wealth is tied to it. Tied to the value judgements and investments that were made, or who decided what was going to make the grade and what wasn't. My own sense is a bit like if the old tomes got torched and replaced with new ones, but then the new ones need translators and arbiters and such, because it became pretty divorced from what it had been previously, which was essentially a form of universal language.

I think that's actually a good way into it for me now, because if you think about Visual Art (or at least the figurative, or imaginative realist sorts) the viewer doesn't need anything other than their eyes to make sense of it. Some sort of sense, anyway. The art that we celebrate, even still, today, often functions as a way to explain something at the point where written language fails. So an emotional resonance that you can just see in the thing, without needing someone to point out or explain it, which is where the universality of it comes from. The human face and figure as a metaphor or a symbol, that sort of stuff, which everyone can understand and recognize. Very much the reason it was used for icons in the first place. I still think that's a good test, perhaps not of what constitutes art, but whether it's working, because if it can't function symbolically there's not much left to it.

To see what happens when something becomes ubiquitous, just check out Instagram right now to see all the Disney Pixar style cartoons floating around since this weekend. It's just like the Lensa thing from a year ago, but now it's for pets and such too! Goodness. Or I mean, take those BG portraits I'm sure we've all seen by now, the ones generated by AIs that look super clean, cause they scrapped like 40 years worth of professional fantasy portraiture using traditional methods. First time you see it it's mind blowing, second time around just becomes meh. Same deal for CGI in films. Pretty short shelf life on all that stuff, compared to the practical effects of yesteryear, which still hold up in context.

I'd take Loomis' again here, because he gave really solid advice to Illustrators (and this was in the 1940s) but he basically said, what you draw is more important than how you draw it. Meaning that it's up to artist to be selective and to exercise some judgement about which subject is worth pursuing. I think this still holds, and it's something that Bots just cannot do, thankfully. Or at least not yet.

But to bring it home to BG3 and the initial Q, it probably is important that we are at least somewhat discerning on this count, just to retain some meaning for the term, if everything is Art then nothing is. So not to pan too hard, but we'd need to have some clear examples of a similar game that is for sure not Art. Like just complete trash that can't hold a candle, because then we can start to see what makes one thing worthy of the claim and the other not, via the positive/negative example. This is much easier to do with painting, where I can just say "yeah, fuck Cezanne!" and peeps would just immediately know where the lines in the sand are. Not to pick on him or anything, I'm sure he was cool and all, but good grief. So many shitty Cezanne reprints of fruit bowls hanging at my Nona's house, that I'm sure he can handle the dig hehe. Also I think wasn't he on the ARC vitriol page? lol

Here let me see if I can dig it up...


Like I don't think we need to drink that much kool-aid, but it's good fun for counter points. You can just sorta picture the guy with the Disney Pixar steam coming out both ears there heheh. I don't agree with this per se, but it is worth a read I think. Like at least dude takes a position and stakes a claim, though it might be a bit hardcore for even my tastes.
 
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Black Elk

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ps. Having just re-read that article, I found myself nodding many times at his broadsides and settled scores, right up till a certain point in the "Art-Speak" section where he comes off like a complete dumbass hehe. That section has not aged well at all, like heads in the sand lol. I'd expect a mea culpa on that one actually, and was surprised not to find one, but then that website is about as ancient as the Larian boards, so make of it what you will hehe. It's funny also to think what an impression it must have had on my younger self, like I even default to some of that language now without missing a beat, so it must have etched some serious grooves in the young brain. Although re-reading it now, I can see see all sorts of radicalization tropes sprinkled in there, with the whole framing. Anyhow, just thought it was amusing. Deep dive digressions doubtless, what was the subject again? Oh yeah Indie Games! hehehe
 
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Antimatter

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Appreciate all the responses and the subsequent discussion regarding art. I'm not an art person but I would definitely qualify games as a form of art, similarly to cinema.

I think almost everyone responding here has defined the budget and the team size should differentiate an indie from other games.

When I first saw the discussion on Twitter (or should we call it X now), it seemed silly to me. Like, I understand Larian is independent, but it felt so off to see, even potentially, them competing with indie teams.

I guess, the question remains, just how small of a team the company (or its department) should be to be considered an indie.

Alan Wake 2 (just released) had a team of only 120 people. I can't call the game indie because of Epic being the publisher, but everything else about this game feels like a high-budget indie game.

https://www.remedygames.com/article/alan-wake-2-is-out-now

Would you, say, call Owlcat Games an indie studio? I would guess, depending on what we've all defined about BG3, Rogue Trader can't be called an indie as it's based on the Warhammer universe.
 
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