Alesia_BH
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To quote Jerri Blank from Strangers With Candy:
"Don't trust the new kids. New is different, and different is bad."
(There's nothing wrong with the EE NPCs. I'm just being a tired fuddy-duddy who doesn't like change.)
The Candlekeep Annex: RPed Baldur’s Gate No and Low Reload Adventures
- Thread starter Alesia_BH
- Start date
To quote Jerri Blank from Strangers With Candy:
"Don't trust the new kids. New is different, and different is bad."
(There's nothing wrong with the EE NPCs. I'm just being a tired fuddy-duddy who doesn't like change.)
Alesia_BH
Habitué
- Messages
- 912
Alena, Halfling Priest of Lathander, Canon Party Run: The De'Arnise Keep
With Yoshimo's quest completed, it was time to take on another. You know what that means, Nalia: We're finally willing to hear your plea.
And sorry, Yoshi: There's only one Imoen, therefore there's only room for one Imoen replacement. You'll have to sit this one out.
After adding Nalia, we made our way to the Promenade, followed by the Bridge District, shopping for scrolls. That went well, in the sense that we found everything we were looking for. It went poorly in the sense that it made us broke. One would think Daddy Dearest would have invested in better tutors for you, Nalia. Your book was a mess.
Nalia's memorization binge brought Alena to level 11. Level 11 means L6 spells, and L6 spells mean Blade Barrier. Who here remembers Astrid, my priest of Talos? Do you remember how her super simple AC down, Blade Barrier up strategy carried her through SoA and much of ToB? You'll see that from Alena from time to time, too.
Speaking of Astrid, she's retired now, but she would be livid -livid I say- if she saw David's spell tweaks. Lightning Bolts only hit targets once now? No more double, triple or quadruple bouncers? That's a raw deal for Talossans, for sure.
Anyhoo, those who have read my runs before know that I have a pair of traditions in the De'Arnise Keep. I always post a pic of the first dead troll, with the simple caption:
Bam!
And I always try to murder Nalia's pooches in a new, possibly exciting way. Our approach wasn't especially inspired this time, but it was satisfying nonetheless. We had the flesh golem beat them to a pulp. Simple, but solid. 3 out of 5 stars.
Onward to the draw bridge lever. Alena, with her rock bottom AC, was well positioned to hold the line here. Jaheira, with her Ironskins, joined her. Minsc reached over their shoulders with Lilacor. Meanwhile, Aerie and Nalia blasted way with their spells. A fireball from Mr. Efreeti finished the whole batch in one go.
Once the drawbridge was open we called our summons to face the greater yuan ti. Note that we've graduated to teen age skeletons. Four more levels and we'll have the grown ups.
The thing I like about solo play is that you always have to be on your game. Even simple encounters are potential threats when there's just one of you. You need to use your abilities to the max in order to push through. After fight, after fight, of pushing toward optimality, you get pretty good. You learn the class, and you thrive. It's satisfying. With a party things are different. There are difficulty spikes, but the minor encounters are laughably trivial. I haven't been using Alena's squad to its full potential because I haven't needed to. As long as you don't make any egregious errors, all those attacks and spell equivalent actions will win the day. Against the troll groups we sent our summons up ahead, and then fired away with out ranged weapons. An occasional Holy Smite helped thin the herd. With Chaotic Commands on everyone except Aerie, the spirit trolls skipped Greater Command in favor of Flame Strike. That's what caused Jaheira's injury in the second screen shot.
David's yuan ti mages are a serious pain in the tuckus. Since we'll be fighting more than a few in this adventure, I saw no reason to toy with the one guarding the keep key. We let our master thief handle the job.
SI:A and SI: D insured that Aerie wouldn't lose her Sanctuary. The only onion in the ointment here was that big troll over to the west. He was blocking the key. Not a problem. We'll just send in a summon to draw his attention.
And we're gone.
Nalia looks on as her father's most loyal captain is straight up murdered by a skellie prison, ranged fire and spells. Easy there, Aerie. No need for a Flame Strike. He's already dead.
If you've been wondering how we handled the umber hulks, then you haven't been paying attention. No surprises here.
The easy stuff is done. Now we have a decision to make: Do we fight Torgal now, or save him for later? I haven't made up my mind yet, but if we do go ahead with it, we're picking up Yoshi first. His traps won't win this fight on their own, but they'll surely help.
Best,
A.
With Yoshimo's quest completed, it was time to take on another. You know what that means, Nalia: We're finally willing to hear your plea.
After adding Nalia, we made our way to the Promenade, followed by the Bridge District, shopping for scrolls. That went well, in the sense that we found everything we were looking for. It went poorly in the sense that it made us broke. One would think Daddy Dearest would have invested in better tutors for you, Nalia. Your book was a mess.
Nalia's memorization binge brought Alena to level 11. Level 11 means L6 spells, and L6 spells mean Blade Barrier. Who here remembers Astrid, my priest of Talos? Do you remember how her super simple AC down, Blade Barrier up strategy carried her through SoA and much of ToB? You'll see that from Alena from time to time, too.
Anyhoo, those who have read my runs before know that I have a pair of traditions in the De'Arnise Keep. I always post a pic of the first dead troll, with the simple caption:
Bam!
Best,
A.
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Alesia_BH
Habitué
- Messages
- 912
Alena, Halfling Priest of Lathander, Canon Party Run: Torgal
I did not like this plan. I did not like this plan. I did not like this plan.
Just in case it isn't clear, allow me to reiterate: I did not like this plan.
I hated it.
I hated it because it was complicated and complicated plans are dangerous. It's too easy to miss something- too easy to make a mistake.
I did not like this plan. But I didn't need to like it. It just had to work.
Let's cover the pre-battle prep first. We placed Yoshimo's traps near the door, and then rested to replenish. We buffed everyone except Yoshi with Remove Fear, Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, and fire resistance. We summoned two skellies and two fire elementals, and then let the arcane characters take their buffs, including SI:A and SI: D. After a Haste cast we broke the squad into two teams. Nalia, Aerie and Jaheira were team A. We positioned them near the door, each with a potion of firebreath at the ready. Yoshimo, Minsc and Alena were team B. They went to the west, in the next room, with potions of explosion and oils of fiery burning in their quick slots. We sent the fire elementals to the south, and the skellies to the west with Alena. We are ready. Those skellies will catch up.
Time to engage. Nalia inches forward, enticing Torgal to charge. Here he comes.
Torgal hits Yoshimo's traps, suffering massive damage. It's not enough. Team A, Nalia, Aerie and Jaheira uncork their potions of fire breath.
We send the fire elementals forward to intercept. They should take regen off the potions of firebreath while Torgal's crew cooks.
It's time to finish this. Once the fire elementals are in place, blockading the door, Minsc and Alena charge forward with their potions of explosion. Yoshi hangs back, and continues to set traps.
Torgal falls. His melee fighters are dead, too, but the yuan ti mages are incoming. The battle isn't over. It's just time for the next phase.
We break west to the skellies. They intercept the yuan ti, slowing them down. The yuan ti unleash a Death Spell, but we expected that- that was the point of the skellies. With the Death Spell spent, we summon Mr. Efreeti along with our magic immune flesh golem. We send Fleshy to engage the yuan ti. Will they take the bait? They do! We're ready for the final stage of our plan: target Fleshy with Cloudkills. And there we have it. It'll all be over soon.
The yuan ti landed a Remove on Jaheira, followed by Malison, Emotion and Confusion. The expendable Yoshimo was Confused, too. Those were our only setbacks. When the dust settled, we were all standing, all close to full health. Our plan worked beautifully. I still hate it. I hope I'll never use it again.
Best,
A.
I did not like this plan. I did not like this plan. I did not like this plan.
Just in case it isn't clear, allow me to reiterate: I did not like this plan.
I hated it.
I hated it because it was complicated and complicated plans are dangerous. It's too easy to miss something- too easy to make a mistake.
I did not like this plan. But I didn't need to like it. It just had to work.
Let's cover the pre-battle prep first. We placed Yoshimo's traps near the door, and then rested to replenish. We buffed everyone except Yoshi with Remove Fear, Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, and fire resistance. We summoned two skellies and two fire elementals, and then let the arcane characters take their buffs, including SI:A and SI: D. After a Haste cast we broke the squad into two teams. Nalia, Aerie and Jaheira were team A. We positioned them near the door, each with a potion of firebreath at the ready. Yoshimo, Minsc and Alena were team B. They went to the west, in the next room, with potions of explosion and oils of fiery burning in their quick slots. We sent the fire elementals to the south, and the skellies to the west with Alena. We are ready. Those skellies will catch up.
Best,
A.
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WiseGrimwald
Habitué
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WiseGrimwald
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I've come across a couple of NPCs that are clearly joinable, but won't join: Morik and Jenna. I looked them up and apparently they are from North Side of the Sword Coast.
I thought that the reason that they wouldn't talk might have been because of my alignment but I took a Blackguard to speak to them and equally got rebuffed.
Does anyone know what the problem is? Do I have to wait until later in the game? Just curious, as I don't have room for two more in my party.
I thought that the reason that they wouldn't talk might have been because of my alignment but I took a Blackguard to speak to them and equally got rebuffed.
Does anyone know what the problem is? Do I have to wait until later in the game? Just curious, as I don't have room for two more in my party.
Alesia_BH
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I don't know, Wise. I found references to them, and a review, but I couldn't find them in a currently downloadable mod or a Read Me. I checked both Dark Side of the Sword Coast and Northern Tales of the Sword Coast.
DSoTC and NToSC are both Spellhold Studios mods, so your best bet may be to ask on the Spellhold Studios forums. They aren't super active, but there were a few posts last months.
You could also try DMing Isandir on the Beamdog forums. He was the one who introduced them, posting the graphic above. He's not super active, but he has signed on this year, at least, most recently in April.
Good luck!
DSoTC and NToSC are both Spellhold Studios mods, so your best bet may be to ask on the Spellhold Studios forums. They aren't super active, but there were a few posts last months.
You could also try DMing Isandir on the Beamdog forums. He was the one who introduced them, posting the graphic above. He's not super active, but he has signed on this year, at least, most recently in April.
Good luck!
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Alesia_BH
Habitué
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Alena, Halfling Priest of Lathander, Canon Party Run: The Unseeing Eye
I'd like to dedicate this song to Yoshimo:
At this stage of the adventure we'd like Nalia to replace Yoshimo as our thief. That's fine. It works. But whenever I find myself planning a plan to take done a big bad baddie, I always think of Yoshimo's traps, and his Special Snares in particular. They're just too useful to leave on the table.
After leaving the Keep, we made our way to Trademeet, where we said goodbye to Yoshimo. Sorry, Yosh, but you had to see this coming. We didn't spend 10k on scrolls for Nalia just to let her go.
We did not miss Yoshimo in our showdown with the Crypt King.
A high level Yoshi would have been helpful at the Temple of Lathander. Dawnbringer Sain doesn't deserve to die for this, but he does deserve to be maze trapped. I mean, seriously: What's up with that?
We let Alena lead as we made our way to Gaul. Blade Barrier tanking. Memories of Astrid here. Good times.
Jaheira took down the spiders.
I was pleased to see gauths instead of beholders by the bridge. Our teenage skeletons can't handle beholders and the grown ups are still four levels away. Shadows swooped in from the north, threatening the skellies, but Alena took care of them with turn. Invisibility kept her safe.
Once the Emphatic Manifestation was dead, my thoughts turned to the Unseeing Eye, and Yoshimo immediately thereafter. It was settled: We needed our bounty hunter back.
We secreted away our rift device piece, and headed to the Copper.
Yes, Yoshi, we missed your Special Snares. I mean your company. Yeah, your company. That's it.
Against the undead, Alena and Minsc proved to be a dynamic duo. Alena, turning, kept the creatures at a distance. Minsc, with Azuredge, did the rest. Hamsters and rangers, y'all. Hamsters and rangers.
Onto the Unseeing Eye. We set Yoshi's traps, summoned four skellies, and took our buffs. I debated whether to buff everyone with CC and DW. Ultimately I decided not too in the interest of preserving invisibility charges. We wanted to start invisible, and have an Invisibility 10' Radius in reserve. I could have made this happen, while still buffing everyone, by using Mr. Efreeti's three invisibilities. I should have done that. Anti-magic Ray will wipe those buffs in an instant, true, but that still means a period of safety at no meaningful cost. Alena took Resist Fear, CC and Death Ward. She also carried Harmony.
We claim the Rift Device. It is time. Forward march, skellies!
The Unseeing Eye arrives. David foils the trap gambit with missile damage resistance on the Unseeing Eye, and a delayed arrival of the death tyrants. Well played, but Yoshi still has his Special Snares.
Jaheira activates the Rift Device, bringing the Unseeing Eye to badly wounded. The rest of the party unleashes their AoE options. The Unseeing Eye falls but we are exposed. Minsc, lacking Death Ward, is killed in an instant. Sorry big fella! It's been a rough journey for you.
Even with the Unseeing Eye dead, this is still a fight. Those Death Tyrants are no joke. We break north. Aerie uses her remaining Invisibility 10' Radius, while the summons run distraction. We are all safe, invisible. Yoshi, you're up.
We prevail, with Yoshi finishing both of the death tyrants. Thanks again, Yosh. I'm pretty sure we'll see you again.
Best,
A.
I'd like to dedicate this song to Yoshimo:
At this stage of the adventure we'd like Nalia to replace Yoshimo as our thief. That's fine. It works. But whenever I find myself planning a plan to take done a big bad baddie, I always think of Yoshimo's traps, and his Special Snares in particular. They're just too useful to leave on the table.
After leaving the Keep, we made our way to Trademeet, where we said goodbye to Yoshimo. Sorry, Yosh, but you had to see this coming. We didn't spend 10k on scrolls for Nalia just to let her go.
Best,
A.
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Alesia_BH
Habitué
- Messages
- 912
Alena, Halfling Priest of Lathander, Canon Party Run: Gaal
We ended our last session by taking a nap over by Sassar et al. When we awoke it was time to face Gaal.
This encounter isn't always trivial for my solo characters, so I took it seriously. It ended up being an exercise in, um, yeah, maybe we overdid it.
For some reason Gaal was in his room, to the west, instead of in the foyer with his elite guard. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have made a difference. Here we see the party, full buffed, with a full complement of summons murdering the elite guard.
We then went on the hunt for Gaal. We opened with a Secret Word from Nalia, followed by a Silence from Alena.
Does Gaal get the award for worst day ever? His literal god was literally killed, and then he had to deal with this.
Ouch!
Whoah there, Nalia! He's dead. You don't need to Breach them when they're dead- not unless they're liches or Tanova.
Alena is off to the Temple of Lathander to claim her reward. Maybe the insane Dawnbringer Sain will actually talk to her this time.
Best,
A.
We ended our last session by taking a nap over by Sassar et al. When we awoke it was time to face Gaal.
This encounter isn't always trivial for my solo characters, so I took it seriously. It ended up being an exercise in, um, yeah, maybe we overdid it.
For some reason Gaal was in his room, to the west, instead of in the foyer with his elite guard. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have made a difference. Here we see the party, full buffed, with a full complement of summons murdering the elite guard.
Best,
A.
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WiseGrimwald
Habitué
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- 548
Journal of Strongheart
We took on Droth after Shoal had reduced Thorin to 1HP.
He and Tenya moved away and when Droth turned up Tenya cast water jet. That stunned Droth and everyone in our party except herself and Thorin. Despite his low health Thorin waded in with Tenya and killed Droth and also Shoal.
EDIT Tenya healed Thorin somewhat, but upon resting a ghast attacked. Fortunately we survived and went on to kill some sirine both in that area and in the Lighthouse area.
We cleared the cave easily and went on to kill Bassilus. We were hoping to have enough gold to buy the robe of the Good Archmage but we are still a little short. Perhaps if we do Tenya's and Neera's quests we will then have sufficient funds.
EDIT
When we fought Lethe to complete Tenya's quest Neera was killed and it cost 600gp to raise her.
However we were soon able to complete her quest. Upon doing so we bade her farewell. She wasn't pleased about that but said that if we wanted her in the party in the future, she would be at the FAI. Meanwhile we returned to Beregost.
We took on Droth after Shoal had reduced Thorin to 1HP.
He and Tenya moved away and when Droth turned up Tenya cast water jet. That stunned Droth and everyone in our party except herself and Thorin. Despite his low health Thorin waded in with Tenya and killed Droth and also Shoal.
EDIT Tenya healed Thorin somewhat, but upon resting a ghast attacked. Fortunately we survived and went on to kill some sirine both in that area and in the Lighthouse area.
We cleared the cave easily and went on to kill Bassilus. We were hoping to have enough gold to buy the robe of the Good Archmage but we are still a little short. Perhaps if we do Tenya's and Neera's quests we will then have sufficient funds.
EDIT
When we fought Lethe to complete Tenya's quest Neera was killed and it cost 600gp to raise her.
However we were soon able to complete her quest. Upon doing so we bade her farewell. She wasn't pleased about that but said that if we wanted her in the party in the future, she would be at the FAI. Meanwhile we returned to Beregost.
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Alesia_BH
Habitué
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- 912
Alena, Halfling Priest of Lathander, Canon Party Run: Party Rundown- Boo's Astral Menagerie
I think it's time for a party rundown. Whaddaya say?
I'll take your collective silence as tacit agreement. We're doing this.
But first, we should talk about this post's subtitle, Boo's Astral Menagerie.
Boo's Astral Menagerie is a book, and I take it as a personal failing that I've only recently learned of its existence. It appears to be little more than a monster manual, but I still feel compelled to buy a copy. I mean, check this out: it's awesome.
The awesomeness of the cover art hasn't been lost on everyone. Some have gone so far as to make posters of it. If I find this in my next AirBnB I'm never leaving.
Questionable AirBnB decor choices aside, a poster is not in my future. I travel too much for that to make sense. There is, however, this glorious full sized image, which makes a perfect laptop wallpaper.
For many years now, I have used this image of Sally Fields as the Flying Nun as my wallpaper. Don't ask me why. I don't have an answer. It's just something that happened.
With apologies to Sally Fields, I am now rocking the cover art from Boo's Astral Menagerie. I suggest you do the same. Of course, you way want to try Sally Fields as the Flying Nun first. You may not love it right now, but give it a few years. It'll grow on you. Take it from one who knows.
Right. Well, why am I bringing this up? Because it needed to be said, but also because Boo's Astral Menagerie is now the unofficial name of Alena's party. It's fitting because they're all stars, every last one. Even Jaheira.
Aerie the Lionhearted (and soon to be Tank of Doom)
Aerie is our party leader and master thief. She is also destined to become our tank. Don't believe me? Check out Alicia's insane with double damage SCS/Ascension party run on Blackstrider.net. Aerie tanked all the way through ToB and up until the Throne she had taken zero hit points of damage. Who but Aerie could pull that off? Gaal's Girdle of Fortitude was a nice pick up for her.
Aerie’s Theme Song: Army of Me by Bjork
Jaheira, Jaheira
Yes, I wrote Jaheira's name twice. Why? Because I can't help but hear it that way. Jaheira, to me, is now Jaheira, Jaheira, voiced in the manner of Wyclef Jean from Shakira's Hips Don't Lie. Apologies to those who can't unhear that now. My guess is it's all of you.
Jaheira is an unsung hero of our crew. She is our erstwhile tank, occasional summoner and Harm->Victor assassin. She's also the party's best buffer right now, thanks to the odd druidic level progression. She's a valued member of the team, despite the nerfing of her most potent tool, Insect Plague.
Jaheria’s Theme Song: Hips Don’t Lie by Shakira
Alena the Morning Light
Alena is our party protector, summoner and emerging Blade Barrier tank. I used to think the priest power curve attenuated at high levels. Astrid taught me otherwise. Alena's best days are ahead of her, not behind. I promise you.
Alena’s Theme Song: Hella Good by No Doubt
Minsc the Undefeated
Minsc is undefeated. He's forever and 0. Petrification? Death? They're minor setbacks for our two hander hero. Minsc is our loot lugger, as you can see, but he is also our high damage off tank. He slips into the background in tougher fights, true, but he's still a star. Check out those kill numbers. Villainy make way. You have been warned.
Minsc’s Theme Song: Holding Out for a Hero by Bonnie Tyler
Nalia the Wise
Yes, she has a wisdom of 9, and yes she's a little naive. But her heart is ever in the right place, and that, to me, is the essence of wisdom. Issac Asimov once said that we are intelligent to the extent that we make the world a better place. I say we are wise to the extent that we try.
Nalia, slayer of Torgal, is our arcane debuffer. As the battles get tougher, and the mages get scarier, you can expect to see Nalia rise to the fore. Yoshimo is missed, but there's a reason why Nalia is here. It's a shame her Shadow Armor doesn't show up on her avatar. Someone should fix that.
Nalia’s Theme Song: Peace, Love and Understanding by Elvis Costello
And there you have it: Boo's Astral Menagerie. May they continue to rise.
Best,
A.
I think it's time for a party rundown. Whaddaya say?
I'll take your collective silence as tacit agreement. We're doing this.
But first, we should talk about this post's subtitle, Boo's Astral Menagerie.
Boo's Astral Menagerie is a book, and I take it as a personal failing that I've only recently learned of its existence. It appears to be little more than a monster manual, but I still feel compelled to buy a copy. I mean, check this out: it's awesome.
Right. Well, why am I bringing this up? Because it needed to be said, but also because Boo's Astral Menagerie is now the unofficial name of Alena's party. It's fitting because they're all stars, every last one. Even Jaheira.
Aerie the Lionhearted (and soon to be Tank of Doom)
Aerie is our party leader and master thief. She is also destined to become our tank. Don't believe me? Check out Alicia's insane with double damage SCS/Ascension party run on Blackstrider.net. Aerie tanked all the way through ToB and up until the Throne she had taken zero hit points of damage. Who but Aerie could pull that off? Gaal's Girdle of Fortitude was a nice pick up for her.
Aerie’s Theme Song: Army of Me by Bjork
Jaheira, Jaheira
Yes, I wrote Jaheira's name twice. Why? Because I can't help but hear it that way. Jaheira, to me, is now Jaheira, Jaheira, voiced in the manner of Wyclef Jean from Shakira's Hips Don't Lie. Apologies to those who can't unhear that now. My guess is it's all of you.
Jaheira is an unsung hero of our crew. She is our erstwhile tank, occasional summoner and Harm->Victor assassin. She's also the party's best buffer right now, thanks to the odd druidic level progression. She's a valued member of the team, despite the nerfing of her most potent tool, Insect Plague.
Jaheria’s Theme Song: Hips Don’t Lie by Shakira
Alena the Morning Light
Alena is our party protector, summoner and emerging Blade Barrier tank. I used to think the priest power curve attenuated at high levels. Astrid taught me otherwise. Alena's best days are ahead of her, not behind. I promise you.
Alena’s Theme Song: Hella Good by No Doubt
Minsc the Undefeated
Minsc is undefeated. He's forever and 0. Petrification? Death? They're minor setbacks for our two hander hero. Minsc is our loot lugger, as you can see, but he is also our high damage off tank. He slips into the background in tougher fights, true, but he's still a star. Check out those kill numbers. Villainy make way. You have been warned.
Minsc’s Theme Song: Holding Out for a Hero by Bonnie Tyler
Nalia the Wise
Yes, she has a wisdom of 9, and yes she's a little naive. But her heart is ever in the right place, and that, to me, is the essence of wisdom. Issac Asimov once said that we are intelligent to the extent that we make the world a better place. I say we are wise to the extent that we try.
Nalia, slayer of Torgal, is our arcane debuffer. As the battles get tougher, and the mages get scarier, you can expect to see Nalia rise to the fore. Yoshimo is missed, but there's a reason why Nalia is here. It's a shame her Shadow Armor doesn't show up on her avatar. Someone should fix that.
Nalia’s Theme Song: Peace, Love and Understanding by Elvis Costello
And there you have it: Boo's Astral Menagerie. May they continue to rise.
Best,
A.
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WiseGrimwald
Habitué
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Borco
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Okay, so I knew that my crew is late to the party, I just haven't realized how late. It's 2 am in Athkatla and Alena's party is celebrating their exploits in the Bridge District - there's an open tap at Five Flagons and an ongoing moshpit at the theater stage, while Shakira's Laundry Service is blasting from the speakers.
Meanwhile, we're getting soaked and cold near the Nashkel Mines, scavenging crooked arrows from kobolds' corpses, with Montaron's trying to barbecue one over a dying fire. To complement our miserable outlooks, we've been forced to listen to Xzar's incessant mumbling and the occasional quoting of Oppenheimer for the last few hours and, worst of all, we have the frat bro Ajantis trying to put together a motivational speech - "Yeah!". It's now clear that the only sane members of our motley party are two Bhaalspawn and a drow. And Amn seems worlds away. But we'll march on!
Meanwhile, we're getting soaked and cold near the Nashkel Mines, scavenging crooked arrows from kobolds' corpses, with Montaron's trying to barbecue one over a dying fire. To complement our miserable outlooks, we've been forced to listen to Xzar's incessant mumbling and the occasional quoting of Oppenheimer for the last few hours and, worst of all, we have the frat bro Ajantis trying to put together a motivational speech - "Yeah!". It's now clear that the only sane members of our motley party are two Bhaalspawn and a drow. And Amn seems worlds away. But we'll march on!
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Alesia_BH
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I look forward to hearing about it
- Messages
- 249
Honestly? The EE NPCs aren't really that much worse than quite a few of the non-EE ones. People seem to object to them coming up to you for a dialog, involving you in a scene, or being required in the party for a quest, but a lot of the non-EE ones do the same thing. Lets look at a few examples:
- Imoen in both games will have long unskipable dialogs, and force join you; not even an option to say "No, you can't join.", at least until you reach spellhold (which is another forced dialog).
- Minsc in BG2 will talk to you and have a rather long dialog (two actually) as soon as you get near him.
- Jaheira in BG2 will also dialog with you as soon as you get near her.
- Viconia in both games will have dialogs with you as soon as you get close, and, if you are a decent sort, also involve you in a scene with combat.
- Yoshimo has a long, unskipable dialog.
- Anomen will dialog with you as soon as you get near him.
- Nalia will run up to you as soon as she sees you and has a sizable dialog.
- Aerie has an unskipable dialog.
- Jan will have an unskipable dialog and cutscene as soon as you get near him.
- Edwin is an essential part of the Mae'var questline in BG2.
- Alora will dialog with you as soon as she sees you, and will even call the guards on you in the non-EE version of the game if you steal in front of her(!), even though she is also there as a theif!
- In the non-EE version of the game, Yeslick was an absolute pain in the ass if you took him out of the mine. He would dialog with you and ask to join nonstop if he saw you due to a bug.
- Coran in BG1 sits in the middle of a narrow bridge and is pretty hard to get around unless you talk to him and have him join so you can move him the heck out of the way.
- Cernd has an unskipable dialog and you either need to make room for him or have another druid with you to do the Trademeet quest.
- Keldorn has an unskipable dialog.
- Valygar is annoyingly unable to find the Athkatla slums on his own. You have to make room for him in the party if you want to get in the sphere. (Seriously, why can't he just meet you there and let you in?!)
- Mazzy will have a dialog as soon as she sees you.
- Haer'Dalis is also unskipable if you want to do his quest.
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Thank you for this list, and for bringing balance to that particular discussion. I would highlight the Viconia BG2 scene as probably the closest to the BG:EE Neera Beregost scene and the BGII:EE Bridge scene.
Looking at the list, one can count 15 BG2:SOA NPCs. There are 16 NPCs in total in the game. We can exclude those NPCs who are required for their quests: Valygar, Haer'Dalis, Cernd, and also let's exclude Edwin. So 11/16.
Dorn in BGII:EE is one of the EE NPCs who doesn't approach you for a dialogue. He also doesn't start a cutscene. There is also Wilson who doesn't approach you either, and also he's well hidden beyond quest objectives.
This makes 2 out of 5 EE NPCs. So 2/5.
And just for BG1 alone (the game that had very basic NPC interaction anyway and the game that essentially started this whole subgenre of western cRPGs), we have Imoen, Coran, Alora (3 NPCs) vs Neera, and Dorn (who participates in the waylay encounter), and also Baeloth (but Baeloth is an Easter Egg added later as a compensation for the delayed release of BG:EE).
That's pretty balanced and comparable to the pre-EE approach, if you ask me.
I'd also say that the EEs are a product of 2010s. The years when games like PoE were in the works (and later released). Initial interactions with NPCs in the EEs are comparable to what you see in Pillars of Eternity.
Looking at the list, one can count 15 BG2:SOA NPCs. There are 16 NPCs in total in the game. We can exclude those NPCs who are required for their quests: Valygar, Haer'Dalis, Cernd, and also let's exclude Edwin. So 11/16.
Dorn in BGII:EE is one of the EE NPCs who doesn't approach you for a dialogue. He also doesn't start a cutscene. There is also Wilson who doesn't approach you either, and also he's well hidden beyond quest objectives.
This makes 2 out of 5 EE NPCs. So 2/5.
And just for BG1 alone (the game that had very basic NPC interaction anyway and the game that essentially started this whole subgenre of western cRPGs), we have Imoen, Coran, Alora (3 NPCs) vs Neera, and Dorn (who participates in the waylay encounter), and also Baeloth (but Baeloth is an Easter Egg added later as a compensation for the delayed release of BG:EE).
That's pretty balanced and comparable to the pre-EE approach, if you ask me.
I'd also say that the EEs are a product of 2010s. The years when games like PoE were in the works (and later released). Initial interactions with NPCs in the EEs are comparable to what you see in Pillars of Eternity.
Alesia_BH
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Thank you for your perseptive, Xzarloxara. I agree with you in the main.
That said, Neera's introduction is significantly more intrusive than any of the originals. I agree with Antimatter that Viconia is the closest to Neera, in terms of how elaborate her introduction is. Viconia is, however, in the corner of a lesser used area, the Government District. Neera, in contrast, is in the unavoidable center of one of the game's most used areas, the Bridge District. I haven't witnessed the Viconia interaction in over a decade. I suffer Neera's each and every run and to top it off she waylays me. Her BG1 intro is arguably worse, in that she can kill you with her Color Spray. People have lost no reloads to her. That's not a risk in any of the BioWare NPC introductions.
Rasaad is also more intrusive than the original NPCs, in that he inserts himself into a significant storyline fight, the Nimbul ambush. That's mitigated somewhat by the fact that the Amnish guard joins the fight, too, but still. Some find that irksome and I sympathize.
As Orlon Kronsteen said, some people don't like the EE NPCs, as a matter of personal taste. And it's fair to say that that would be less of an issue if they were less intrusive. It's also fair to say that Neera, at least, is an outlier with respect to the distribution of BioWare NPC introductions. Rasaad arguably is too. That's 2 out of 5 that are outliers, or near outliers, in comparison to the distribution of BioWare NPCs. You raise fair points but so does Orlon Kronsteen.
That said, Neera's introduction is significantly more intrusive than any of the originals. I agree with Antimatter that Viconia is the closest to Neera, in terms of how elaborate her introduction is. Viconia is, however, in the corner of a lesser used area, the Government District. Neera, in contrast, is in the unavoidable center of one of the game's most used areas, the Bridge District. I haven't witnessed the Viconia interaction in over a decade. I suffer Neera's each and every run and to top it off she waylays me. Her BG1 intro is arguably worse, in that she can kill you with her Color Spray. People have lost no reloads to her. That's not a risk in any of the BioWare NPC introductions.
Rasaad is also more intrusive than the original NPCs, in that he inserts himself into a significant storyline fight, the Nimbul ambush. That's mitigated somewhat by the fact that the Amnish guard joins the fight, too, but still. Some find that irksome and I sympathize.
As Orlon Kronsteen said, some people don't like the EE NPCs, as a matter of personal taste. And it's fair to say that that would be less of an issue if they were less intrusive. It's also fair to say that Neera, at least, is an outlier with respect to the distribution of BioWare NPC introductions. Rasaad arguably is too. That's 2 out of 5 that are outliers, or near outliers, in comparison to the distribution of BioWare NPCs. You raise fair points but so does Orlon Kronsteen.
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I can't but notice how a very similar subject - of giving Fallout 3 a go and enjoying it, despite some portion of players online saying that only F1&2 are "true" Fallout games/works of art, etc. - was resolved differently by you. Probably because you had no F1&2 "nostalgia", or maybe there are other factors involved. "Arguably" and "personal" takes are 100% legit for each player, there is nothing wrong with that. However, I was impressed by how you treated the whole F3 vs the original topic in your thread, with some very key messages there. I don't see a similar approach used here, though. And that's fine, that's my personal observation.
Alesia_BH
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Correct. If I had played the old Fallout games, I'd probably loathe Fallout 3. All indications are that Bethesda didn't do a smashingly good job of managing relations with the legacy community.
And to be clear: To anyone who is new to BG. Go ahead and try the EE's! They're great! Have fun! You won't notice any of the issues I've raised. They're only problematic for legacy players, like me. And to those who have been playing the EE's for years and love Neera et al: Awesome, I'm happy for you! That doesn't change the fact that I, as part of the legacy community, have some notes.
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I have been playing BG since it was released, and I actually like and appreciate the EE NPCs. I am sure plenty of people new to BG dislike the EE NPCs for various reasons, just as I am sure there are plenty of people like me who enjoy the flavor they bring to the game. You should not generalize so much. It is really a bad practice. No offense...
Alesia_BH
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On more note to all the EE lovers out there. Antimatter is correct that I'm on the other side of the fence from the legacy community on Fallout 3. I'm also on the other side of the fence from the legacy community in another game I play, Street Fighter 6 (I'm a Modern Lily for anyone who knows what that means).
My views are a function of my personal history with the respective games, much as yours are. And just because we're on different sides of the fence doesn't mean we can't high five each other over it. We're all here to have fun, after all.
It's me:
My views are a function of my personal history with the respective games, much as yours are. And just because we're on different sides of the fence doesn't mean we can't high five each other over it. We're all here to have fun, after all.
It's me: