Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous General Discussion, Playthroughs and Minimal/No Reload Thread

[m7600]

IMO Druids are kind of weird in this game, they're not like Jaheira or Cernd from BG2. Or maybe I'm just playing them wrong (which is almost certain). Leflin, my Druid Merc, kinda sucks... Actually I should rephrase that. His pet Smilodon is a great damage dealer, and what Leflin himself does is just buff up the Smilodon (with spells like Acid Maw, Magic Fang, Bull's Strength, Natural Rhythm, etc). He does have some useful spells that are not related to his pet, but he's not really a tank, nor a damage dealer, nor a very good spellcaster. Without his pet he would be almost useless lol. But, like I said, I'm probably not very good myself with Druids in this game.

 

[Antimatter]

@Blackraven I know the feeling that there are too many good classes to try in this game, but there are only 6 party spots. @Xzarloxara actually plays these games with 2 custom characters: the MC, and also a mercenary. And then adds NPCs on top of that. Druids are indeed not presented among companions either in Kingmaker or Wrath. Maybe this option could become your compromise as well? And considering one of Xzarloxara's characters is a druid, maybe he could give you some advice?

An update on my Wrath run. Still in Chapter 2. Got frustrated by a few design decisions in 2 areas (Leper's Smile and Lost Chapel) as well as another decision to take a party member from you for an undefined time. In the first of those areas, the player is punished for exploration without any proper explanation beforehand (so I had to replay the whole area), and in the second area (or, rather, a camp encounter before it) the player is punished for non-exploration under urgent conditions (so I completely missed on content, there is no even quest or other entry in my journal). And about losing a companion, it's not similar to a few cases in other games where you can go searching for them right away and eventually take them back. Here, you lose a companion before a few major fights, and with that companion, you lose party composition, appropriate passive skills checks expert etc.

Chapter 2 is not all bad though. I got nice interactions with Daeran.

The main character now leads in the race to inflict the biggest damage.

My party killed a huge spider which was as deadly as it looks!

I need to go through the rest of Chapter 2 to evaluate it further.

 

[alice_ashpool]

The druid comedy option looks like this. Because of course you gain the benefits of your tower-shield while in wolf form. Why wouldn't you?

 

[Antimatter]

What I'm really enjoying is gathering special achievements in Wrath that can only be received on Core difficulty or above for killing particular enemies and sometimes under particular circumstances.

I'm in Drezen fighting armies of demons. All the experience I as the player got from hundreds of hours in Kingmaker is being put to the test in Wrath. The key is to never hesitate and pre-buff heavily, fight as long as your buffs are active, rest, and repeat. While in combat, try to debuff your enemies - Shaken (and Fear) by Daeran's Intimidate, -AC or -saving throws Hex by Camellia. These 2 basically just spam their special abilities every round. Also, seems like my casters finally can be useful. Here is one of the mini-bosses paralyzed because it failed a saving throw vs Nenio's Ice Prison. The spell went through thanks to the debuffing.

Also, look at the size of those horses. Camellia can now Enlarge animals.

Biggest damage so far: 106+6 by my MC.

 

[Xzarloxara]

I am so used to having my druid riding around on her Smilodon that I often forget she can shapeshift too. I really should use those abilities more often.

 

[Xzarloxara]

Sounds like something an angry Defender of the True World would say!

Speaking of Druids, I could not resist the temptation to start a second run, with a Feyspeaker. It'll be nice to learn about druidic magic this way. But I'll also play on with Gerrit the Thassilonian.

Well, I will tell you what I know about Druids, but I don't claim to be an expert on using them.

First of all, they start off really slow. Most of their early spells are dumb and useless in a real fight, and they don't have enough healing to be worthwhile as a healer, and their summoning spells take forever to cast. The animal companions, on the other hand, tend to start out pretty strong, especially if you take a good one (my favorites are Mastodon, Smilodon, and maybe Leopard). Once most other classes start to get going (~lvl 5) druids pick up the pace a touch, but are still lacking amazing spells. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of the most useful druid spells are Transmutation ones, so spell focus in that wouldn't go wrong (if you can find feat space for it). One nice thing they can do is lay out MASSIVE AoE entangle and similar spells, which tend to help quite a bit. Spells like Spike Growth and Spike Stones can destroy melee attackers, who are forced to take damage as they slowly crawl toward you. The main problem there is that if they have any DR of any type, they will likely be immune to the damage. One of the most broken spells in the game also happens to be a druid spell: Cave Fangs (level 5 spell), specifically the Stalagmites version. This spell allows you to lay small traps in rapid succession that can utterly annihilate anything that triggers them, especially when stacked on top of each other. Once again though, any form of DR will make the spell near useless. Unfortunately, that is about where my spell casting advice ends for the druid, as I have never gotten them much farther than level 9.

Shapeshifting is another thing all together. The first thing you should do once you can shapeshift is take the Natural Spell feat, allowing you to cast spells while shifted. This is such an obvious choice it hardly needs mentioning. As for the forms you can take, starting out you get wolf, which can really annoy enemies with it tripping bite. Leopard isn't much better than wolf, since it lacks the tripping bite, but it can attack more often. Elementals are ok, but they get much better at later levels. Bear is a decent form, strong with several attacks, but nothing special. Things get much better once you get Smilodon and Shambling Mound. The Mound is fairly resilient and has some nice abilities, while the Smilodon has a lot of attacks. If you plan on using the shapeshift abilities, then make sure you either have an amulet of Mighty Fists or cast Greater Magic Fang on yourself for added power with your attacks.

Regardless of all this stuff, I find that druids are not ever going to be powerhouse characters. Their main job seems to be support and a little bit of offense. That said, I have never gotten to the really high levels with them, so I don't know what they are like at that point. If you want a powerful caster, then go for a Sorcerer.

 

[Antimatter]

I finished Chapter 2. Overall, my thoughts are more positive than negative. The pace of this chapter was problematic, and Drezen had dozens of trash mob encounters, forcing me to constantly rest and recast all the buffs. Since I played through it for the first time and wanted to get some extra rewards for finishing the chapter quickly, I missed some side content that I could still do there. One example is that I retreated from the Lost Chapel to rest in the camp. Little I knew that I would be drawn into the Drezen siege after that, so any side content in that area, including (based on what I read online) one extra NPC, was left untouched. Even if metagamey I would know now that I don't really need to push ASAP to Drezen, considering what different characters say and explain in-game, it still doesn't make sense to go side-adventuring much when your task is to capture the town. This is why I think the storytelling in this chapter failed. And somehow, the actual Drezen map allowed me to have so many rests when it was apparently an active battle to capture the town.

I was scared to face the final enemies of Chapter 2 based on some comments about how that would be difficult and the use of the TB mode would be required to have a chance. However, even though I hadn't known about the combat setup prior to that battle, I managed to win on the first attempt. It took about 20 minutes overall. That said, now when I finished it, I decided to replay the combat to check a few things.

Below is a spoiler that I can only recommend to those who finished Chapter 2 of Wrath.

Spoiler

If you just focus on Minagho and ignore Staunton and Nurah, you will quickly overwhelm her forcing her to teleport out of the fight. For my party, it took a maximum of 2-3 rounds. After that, the whole army of my party (summons + heavily buffed characters) finished Staunton in another 2-3 rounds. Poor Nurah was the only opponent left and didn't last much longer.

Here is a proving screenshot that the whole party was well-safe when Staunton was already nearly dead. Also, yay for 120 damage!

 

[Blackraven]

Well, I will tell you what I know about Druids, but I don't claim to be an expert on using them.

Thanks, this is a lot of useful info, especially regarding several of their spells, even though Druids haven't really impressed you.

I've put some more thinking into my character (somehow I enjoy that almost as much as actually as playing the game), and have come up with the following for my Feyspeaker:

Spoiler

Found a really nice Halfling portrait and edited it a bit to bring it closer to the game's portrait art style. Halfling seems to be one of the best races for Feyspeaker thanks to their bonus to DEX and CHA: Feyspeakers are CHA-based casters and cheap DEX is always welcome (and arguably better than CON, which Gnomes receive a bonus too). I was OK with the Halfling malus to STR as I don't think I'll be shifting much what with Feyspeakers' reduced accuracy progression. I didn't want to rule it out entirely though, because I want to try defensive/tanky shifting with defensive spells like Barkskin, Mirror Image, and Displacement, if only to be able to do some off-tanking when necessary and maybe cast some spells in the thick of things. That's where 13 WIS comes in, the minimum required for the Natural Spell feat. Even if the shifting doesn't prove sustainable I won't have sacrificed much (a few points of CON or DEX). All in all it leads to a more balanced stat spread than the min-maxed one on my wizard.

I made the early game considerably harder for myself by not picking an animal companion at character creation but going with the Animal Domain instead. It gives an animal companion at level 4 so that by then I'll have a better character with more spells to cast and with a pet just as well. All the extra summon spells from the Animal Domain at spell levels 4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 also compensate to an extent for the Feyspeaker's loss of spontaneous summoning that other Druids get. Thus Dympha's main weakness will be poor accuracy. I think this weakness and the extra domain spells will inform her casting focus: summons, buffing, and crowd control. Plenty of summons and a few animal companions for different characters may also help ameliorate the issue of my NPCs dying too much.

Her(planned) feats are:
lvl 1: Spell Focus: Conjuration (requirement for Augment Summoning)
lvl 3: Augment Summoning (summons gain +4 enhancement bonus to STR and CON)
lvl 5: Boon Companion (brings Animal Companion up to Dympha's level)
lvl 7: Superior Summoning (adds one extra summon for spells that summon more than one creature)
lvl 9: Natural Spell (shifted casting, one level after she gets her first Wildshape)
lvl 11: maybe Spell Focus: Transmutation - thanks again for the tip @Xzarloxara, hopefully level 11 won't be very late for this Spell Focus, and maybe Illusion or Enchantment makes more sense depending on my arcane spells picks.
lvl 13-15-17-19: not sure yet, probably some more spell feats, but am open to suggestions. I might be missing some solid feats that make the animal companion stronger.

As for Dympha's arcane enchantment and illusion spells, intuitively I'm more drawn to Illusion spells (which would be an argument for Gnome over Halfling), but I don't know most spells yet and some Enchantment spells look good too. If there are any garbage spells I should skip, I'd be happy to to receive a heads up. Top contenders for the lower spell levels are: 1 Hypnotism or Vanish; 2 Mirror Image; 3 Displacement; 4 Crushing Despair or Phantasmal Killer; 5 Feeblemind or Mind Fog.

@alice_ashpool your solo work is looking stellar!
@Antimatter nice to see you make progress despite the challenges you've faced so far.
I don't have much to say substantively as I haven't played the game yet and I want to finish Kingmaker at least once before moving on to Wrath.

 

[alice_ashpool]

Gimmicky tanker shifter druid who can do a little bit else:

Go Defender of the true world/Druid depending on preferences, 19 Wis + maximum dex you can, and take a level of Traditional Monk for wis to AC. Pump Wis for spell casting. Evocation is decent path because of Call lightning, call lightning storm, flame strike, Sirocco, Stormbolts, etc. Taking metamagic feats will allow you to up spells to fill in gaps and do heavy damage. Every buff spell you need then transition to offensive casting mid to late game.

You're never going to beat a vivisectionist with Beast Shape 1-3 on the shapeshifted melee damage front iirc, or a wizard on the damage front, but you are still a level 9 caster with access to sirocco and an animal companion instead and you can be an animal too. Once you get Call Lightning, make that your default attack when you are not casting something nastier and you don't need to worry about AB and are free to take tower shield proficiency. Gimmick but fine.

Here's an example
Human Druid 4/Traditional Monk 1
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 19 + 1
Cha: 10
Feats:
1: Spell Focus: Evocation; Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
3: Dodge
5: Natural Spell
Monk : Crane Style

Equip the best shield you got, transform, buff up and go to town.

In action at level 5:

 

[alice_ashpool]

Top contenders for the lower spell levels are: 1 Hypnotism or Vanish; 2 Mirror Image; 3 Displacement; 4 Crushing Despair or Phantasmal Killer; 5 Feeblemind or Mind Fog.

Personally, midgame taking SF: Illusion and GSF: Illusion with: Vanish, Mirror Image, Displacement, Phantasmal Killer, Phantasmal Web, Phantasmal Putrefaction

 

[m7600]

Here's an example
Human Druid 4/Traditional Monk 1
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 19 + 1
Cha: 10
Feats:
1: Spell Focus: Evocation; Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
3: Dodge
5: Natural Spell
Monk : Crane Style

I gave my Druid Merc more Dex than Str, and for a few levels I thought that I had messed up that part of the build. Good to see that my instincts were correct lol.

 

[alice_ashpool]

Yeah, taking advantage of being able to use a shield and still get monks wis to ac is deliciously cheesy. However, if you would like to do damage you can forfeit some AC for str and maybe be able to bite things instead of being tank-caster. You can even go all in on str. All depends how you want to play.

 

[m7600]

This is what my pet Smilodon looks like when she's on steroids. Her base strength is 13. Not a big deal. But when she buffs up, she ends up with a whopping total of 41 strength. And she's just at level 9.

I think this is preposterous, lol. This seems to be a quirk of the Pathfinder system. Stats can go through the roof. Personally, I kinda prefer the mix of 2nd and 3rd edition rules that the Baldur's Gate series uses, in which your stats don't usually surpass 18 (though it's possible to reach values in the 20's, but definitely not in the 30's or more). But don't get me wrong, I still like the Pathfinder system overall (although I'm not an expert on it by any stretch of the imagination), and I still like Kingmaker. It's definitely a great game.

 

[mlnevese]

This is what my pet Smilodon looks like when she's on steroids. Her base strength is 13. Not a big deal. But when she buffs up, she ends up with a whopping total of 41 strength. And she's just at level 9.

View attachment 3279


I think this is preposterous, lol. This seems to be a quirk of the Pathfinder system. Stats can go through the roof. Personally, I kinda prefer the mix of 2nd and 3rd edition rules that the Baldur's Gate series uses, in which your stats don't usually surpass 18 (though it's possible to reach values in the 20's, but definitely not in the 30's or more). But don't get me wrong, I still like the Pathfinder system overall (although I'm not an expert on it by any stretch of the imagination), and I still like Kingmaker. It's definitely a great game.

I once saw someone on the net explaining how his characteer had 90+ on every stat...

 

[Xzarloxara]

A neat picture. My characters looking at a lava flow.

 

[Xzarloxara]

I cast Legendary Proportions on Aivu (my Azata dragon) so I could ride her. Got a cool screenshot of it, but I don't plan on doing this regularly. Legendary Proportions is a somewhat difficult spell to cast, as it requires a material component.

 

[Antimatter]

Lucius the Arcane Rider has been slowly progressing through Chapter 3. The game opens up quite substantially as soon as Chapter 2 ends, becoming a more traditional BG-like open-world game with almost no hard time limits for quests. The addition of the Crusade system (which I like quite a lot) makes it even more diverse, so there are plenty of things to do. Every new location brings new items, and the power creep feels steady but substantial.

Camellia's Hexes are very helpful--when I first started playing WotR, I didn't fully realize how amazing Evil Eye can be: you have the agency to pick between decreasing the enemy's AC or Saving Throws. Any of those can be fatal for the enemy.

It's not only about Hexes for the Shaman, though: she compliments spells by both Nenio and Daeran just perfectly.

I also like how I gave Wenduag a few points in Intelligence, and now she (as a Vivisectionist) can even cast Protection from Arrows: Communal twice. My party missed this spell heavily: Nenio has problems with memorizing Abjuration spells due to her school choices.

The addition of the Photo Mode to the game, even while the graphics are pretty basic, is a nice feature.

We just reached the 11th level, here are the party members' feats so far:

Spoiler

 

[m7600]

I just finished Chapter 4 (The Varnhold Vanishing) in Kingmaker, and I have more than half a million gold pieces.

Spoiler

Gotta make sure I have enough for the cool items that get sold at the Rushlight Tournament!

 

[m7600]

Kursk, my Slayer Merc, has permanently left the party. He had died in Vordekai's Tomb, and since I didn't have any scrolls or spells to resurrect him, I just left him there, thinking I could buy a scroll at my town and then go back to the tomb to resurrect him.

Turns out that I must have done something that triggered a bug. At the town, I bought a scroll of Raise Dead and I used it there, not in the tomb. So far, nothing strange, because I found out that in this game you don't actually have to go back to the location where your NPCs died in order to resurrect them. So, Kursk was back on his feet... Well, almost. Here's where I believe I triggered the bug. There's a bit of a delay (a few seconds) between the moment when you use that sort of spell, until the moment when the character is back on their feet and re-joins the team. Instead of waiting, I used the scroll and then I immediately left the area. Kursk was still lying on the ground.

When the screen for the new area finished loading, Kursk appeared lying on the ground. That in itself is buggy. But what's even more buggy is that he couldn't get back up, no matter what I did. And what's even more buggy than that is that he actually moved on the screen from one place to the other, but lying on the ground! Lol... It's like he was swimming on the dirt, but without moving his arms or legs. Although he could move, he couldn't attack or use any ability.

So, I decided to retire him. I can't play with an NPC that can't attack or do anything besides dirt-surfing. From a roleplaying perspective, I'm just going to pretend that he got critically wounded in combat, and that he's crippled now (which is technically true, I think). Kursk's adventuring days are over.

I'm gonna hire a new merc to fill in the spot that he left.

Moral of the story: Adventuring is a risky business!

 

[Antimatter]

IIRC, that lying on the ground bug can be fixed by loading a save with the same character. The model will be rendered correctly after you load it (maybe closing the game and launching it again is required as well).