Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous General Discussion, Playthroughs and Minimal/No Reload Thread

mlnevese

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@Blackraven

Let me add my $0.02...

This game is unforgiving and even experienced players will be knocked out or killed in combat. Going in blind you WILL make mistakes. For instance, the first time I played I went into a dungeon full of stat draining monsters and I had only two restoration scrolls and nobody in the party that could cast restoration. I had to reload a save prior to entering that dungeon and return to the city to change party and acquire equipment.

I certainly would recommend less strict self-imposed rules in the first playthrough to avoid turning what should be a fun time into a frustrating time.

Also, at least to me, the more complex battles work much better in turn-based mode. You'll probably switch between modes a lot during your play.
 

alice_ashpool

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The lady with her prize.

kEcgSoL.png


All that is left to do is assault Grey Garrison.

I had sort of forgotten what it was like to do big damage with a character, but having a Paladin and a Fighter back to back both with outflank at level 5 means that we do big damage. Lann really helps here too. Have Seelah with a bastard sword and her Smites so even more big hits. AC just about keeps up with enemies for now; I think it will start to drop off soon.

MC Level 6 (I know, I know, its clear I kept active party only xp on for as long as possible)
Weapon: Radiance
Shield: Mithral Large + 2
Half-plate +1, Natural Armor + 1, Deflection + 1, Silver Robe, Free Dancer's Boots, Lucky Bracers, Storyteller's Ring

1: WF(longsword), Heavy armor focus
2: Dodge
3: Shield Focus
4: Weapon Specialisation: (longsword)
5: Outflank; Weapon Training (long blades)
6: Crane Style

ABs are >20 and damage is around 1d8+12 + short term extras
 

Blackraven

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@ everyone, thanks for all the nice words and the feedback! 🤗 By playing as if no-reloading I meant things like acting cautiously, using expendable items if they can turn the tables in a difficult encounter instead of reloading, trying to use reliable methods rather than save or else and reload until success, accepting less fortunate outcomes on skill checks etc. I really appreciate your concern and input, because it would be a shame to burn out on this great game.
You have already noticed that an unlisted benefit is that you still receive the School Bonuses of a regular wizard as a Thassalonian Specialist - that makes the class "worth it" imo. They are a super fun class to RP/play, but I think understandably unpopular. The extra spell slots are great in Kingmaker where spell slots are restricted (not so much in WotR where spell slots are 10 a penny)
Ouch, I'm kind of sorry to see Thassilonians fall off in WotR, as I liked imagining going through both games with one character.
On stats: personally, I might have gone with Elf, 8, 16, 10, 19, 12, 14. Your low Wisdom will come back and bite you every time someone casts a spell.
And this is even worse news lol. I guess I'll have to burn some feats on Will boosters then... Would 10 CON not be a bad idea with regard to the Fortitude save and early game survivability?
On the subject of Thassalonian penalties - losing access to necromancy and Evocation is fine, they are the lest useful schools imo - conjuration will make up for loss of evocation. The issue will be making most use of your bonus spells. I would recommend going full into Dispel and Banishment type spells since most Fey can be 1-shot in the main world using these and it's a unique and rare way to play. I played WotR a bit as a banishment specialist and it's great.
Sounds great, thanks!! I'll look into those spells.
Some other things - I don't consider a knock out a game ender, only a full death in which the MC is stone cold dead.
Noted, good to know.
would say this: think less about reloading/not reloading, more about your character, their build, your party synergies, the story, all those small details here and there. Considering one other aspect of Kingmaker, the story doesn't really start until chapters 3-4, stick to your playthrough, and give the game a chance when you will feel unfairly treated (and you will!).
Sound advice, thank you Antimatter! There's much to learn and to enjoy, and that's more important than a certain technical approach to playing the game...


Gerrit, Thassilonian Envy Mage (1)

Let me just post what Gerrit has accomplished so far (not that much lol). The prologue went fine. I don't think there's much to say about it. One casting of Mage Armor lasted Gerrit through it, which was nice. Tartuccio got knocked out in the library battle. Gerrit used his innate fiendish Frigid Touch once. It may well be the only time he'll use it in the game.
Kingmaker 2022-10-26 00-09-29-90.jpg
Harrim had to be intimidated into the party (diplomacy check failed, something I didn't know was possible in this case). Guards were saved from the fire. And the final battle went well with some slight buffs (Protective Ward, Bless) even though Amiri didn't show up to help out. Gerrit's most important contribution was a well-aimed Color Spray.
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His conversation with Lady Aldori resulted in Valerie and Jaethal joining Gerrit along with the lovely Amiri on a trip to Oleg's Trading Post.

We overcame Kressle's bandits even while fatigued (took longer than normal) and earned our first level-up. Valerie took Weapon Focus Bastard Sword. I hope to build her into a solid tank that can still land hits, but I'm not sure if it's going to work. Amiri acquired the Lethal Stance ability. Jaethal got Cunning Initiative and learned Remove Fear. And Gerrit added Reduce Person and Snowball to his spell repertoire (PfAlignment, Shield, Stunning Barrier, Mage Armor, Color Spray, Grease, Hurricane Bow, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat).

Without Bokken's help but with traps, tar, and some castings of Grease we also won the bigger bandit fight. Oleg got knocked out by a bandit that managed to close in on him. The party rested and Gerrit got to know his companions a bit better. Jaethal turned out to be a particularly awful being, but Gerrit chose not to judge her for her past deeds. There was also some cautious flirting between him and Valerie.

The party was directed to the Ancient Tomb for a rendez-vous with Tartuccio. Some prebuffs (Mage Armor, Shield Protective Ward and Bless) were put in place before confronting Tartuccio. This can actually be a tough battle in my experience. However not having Harrim in the party and asking him to join helps. He occupies a melee thug that he's positioned right next to, so that our warriors can take on their archer and wizard while Gerrit casts Grease at their leader.
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Valerie still took a beating, but no one got knocked out (except Harrim who wasn't in the party yet). I love Linzi, what I've seen from her, but Gerrit preferred some muscle in the party, which is why first Jaethal and now Harrim were chosen over her.

We successfully followed Tartuccio's trail to see him masquerade as a Kobold, before we moved on to Kressle's hideout in Thorn Ford. We first dispatched two bandits in the western part of the area without needing any buffs before we proceeded to face Kressle and her posse. Now I had played this battle before with my Ecclesistheurge and it was a miracle the party survived. Valerie was the last one standing with her HPs in the danger zone. I was worried this time we might not be so lucky. But we were. At least I think luck was involved. It was night time and it was raining, which meant that their two archers kept missing and the party could focus on the melee enemies who spent most of the time face down in the dirt thanks to Gerrit's Grease spells and Harrim's Bane spell. Grease + Spell Focus: Conjuration + Bane appears to be a pretty effective combo for the early game. Making sure the party's frontliners don't slip can be tricky though. The battle lasted a long time because we didn't get automatic (ranged) hits on the enemies on the ground, and we missed a lot. Grease lasts quite long though (already two minutes at level 2, and Gerrit had three castings). We threw some alchemical bombs to speed things up. I was happy we prevailed without taking much damage.
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When we further explored the area we found the Stag Lord's wine, but we didn't get the opportunity to poison it, unlike in my Ecclesitheurge run. This is will make the fight with the Stag Lord much harder, I've read. Apparently there's a nature check that I failed. I just went with the unfavorable outcome, a good example of playing "as if no no-reloading". We traveled back to Oleg via the Abandonded Hut. We stocked up on camping supplies and we splurged on the bag of holding because we got encumbered all the time. On our way south we cleaned up the Boggard Hunting Grounds before we ran into a Technic League ambush. Unwilling to give up one of his companions, despite Jathal's volunteering, Gerrit ordered the party to fight. Bane and Grease, supplemented this time with Jaethal's Remove Fear, allowed us to dispatch the enemy. Honestly, I don't know how I'd handle these group fights without Grease (or a Druid's Entangle). She's supposed to be tanky, but the following screenshot shows how a single crit makes Valerie suffer against a warrior or two when they're not lying flat on the ground.
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The party then passed a nature lore check to reveal the location of the Technic League camp. We traveled there, took on two guards without using up resources other than a Bless, and then the camp, much in the same way as the other groups we've fought so far. One thing Gerrit learned not to overestimate was the casting range of his Grease spells. One casting had him move forward catch more foes in the spell's AoE. Gerrit came somewhat close to a Technic League melee fighter who immediately aggo'd him, hit him, and might well have slain him if a second strike (of opportunity) had connected.
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I'm also enjoying the alchemist bombs quite a lot. Here's Harrim disrupting an enemy mage with Alchemist's Fire.
Kingmaker 2022-10-27 08-50-57-36.jpg
We met Octavia and Regongar, spared Kalannah, and accepted Rengongar into the party. I hope Octavia went to Oleg's. I'm now going to look into Rengongar's class. I wonder if he could function as a decent tank with self-buffs, much like a Blade or Fighter/Mage in Baldur's Gate. We're sitting on 4431 XP, so level 3 looks to be somewhat close.
 
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Would 10 CON not be a bad idea with regard to the Fortitude save and early game survivability?
Personally I haven't any problems with 10 Con for my Sylvan Sorcerer. And not being a fan of extream min/maxing and 'damp' stats I'm running him as 10/14/10/12/12/20 on Challenging/Last Azlanti difficulty just fine (finished Chapter 2 main quest with no death whatsoever for any party member so far). Low Str on the other side could bring some issues when Fatigue/Exhaustion strikes or you get stats drains via poison etc.
 

mlnevese

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10 con is within normal average human range It means your spellcaster is a normal person, not a sickly walking corpse that could die if he sneezes with too much strength... Actually you are even healthier than the average human that would have a 9 Con, probably a result of all the adventuring :)
 

alice_ashpool

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We overcame Kressle's bandits even while fatigued (took longer than normal) and earned our first level-up. Valerie took Weapon Focus Bastard Sword. I hope to build her into a solid tank that can still land hits, but I'm not sure if it's going to work.
Very possible and highly recommended. Just don't follow any video builds and you will be golden. Hmu if you want any specific advice.
 

m7600

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So, alignment was mentioned several posts back, and I wanted to say something about it. I really like how they implemented alignment in Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It reminds me of Planescape: Torment. As much as I like the Baldur's Gate series, your alignment is fixed there. By contrast, in a game like Planescape, and Kingmaker, your moral choices can make your character gravitate towards other alignments. What's even more interesting is that in some cases, your options are limited. For example, I usually play as a True Neutral (which is just called "Neutral" in Kingmaker). Sometimes, during a dialogue, I'll be given two extreme options, for example Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil. I don't like either choice because my character is Neutral, but I still have to pick one, since there's no other option. And I like the fact that this makes me step outside of my comfort zone (Though I totally understand that other people might not enjoy this, and that they would prefer to have at least nine moral options in every dialogue, one for every alignment). To me it's like the situation with items, in a weird way. You don't always get to loot the best equipment for your character, you have to work with what you have. Likewise, you don't always get to choose the best moral option for your character, you gotta work with the cards that you've been given, to use a gambling metaphor.

Whew! That was kind of a crazy rant, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt lol 🤪
 

alice_ashpool

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So, alignment was mentioned several posts back, and I wanted to say something about it. I really like how they implemented alignment in Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It reminds me of Planescape: Torment. As much as I like the Baldur's Gate series, your alignment is fixed there. By contrast, in a game like Planescape, and Kingmaker, your moral choices can make your character gravitate towards other alignments. What's even more interesting is that in some cases, your options are limited. For example, I usually play as a True Neutral (which is just called "Neutral" in Kingmaker). Sometimes, during a dialogue, I'll be given two extreme options, for example Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil. I don't like either choice because my character is Neutral, but I still have to pick one, since there's no other option. And I like the fact that this makes me step outside of my comfort zone (Though I totally understand that other people might not enjoy this, and that they would prefer to have at least nine moral options in every dialogue, one for every alignment). To me it's like the situation with items, in a weird way. You don't always get to loot the best equipment for your character, you have to work with what you have. Likewise, you don't always get to choose the best moral option for your character, you gotta work with the cards that you've been given, to use a gambling metaphor.

Whew! That was kind of a crazy rant, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt lol 🤪
It was never fleshed out as well as it should have been, but a big part of the kingdom management in Kingmaker was having to make hard decisions which may have compromised your principles for the sake of kingdom. Rare gameplay.
 

alice_ashpool

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Matilda has liberated grey garrison and now leads the crusade as a Mythic Hero. Everything's looking good so far.

ZCoC4r0.png


We have completed Soseil's and Seelah's quests at the beginning of act 2 and are pushing north. Fighter AC is absolutely not an issue at this stage and overall I am not seeing any issues so far. Ramping up AC to about 70 is still going to cause some issues at some point. I might go tower shield and eat the -2AB penalty it brings.

CEI0S7H.png
 

Antimatter

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I'm now going to look into Rengongar's class. I wonder if he could function as a decent tank with self-buffs, much like a Blade or Fighter/Mage in Baldur's Gate. We're sitting on 4431 XP, so level 3 looks to be somewhat close.
Regongar is an Eldritch Scion while my MC in Wrath is an Arcane Rider (both are Magus archetypes). While there is a slight difference between them (Regongar can have Arcane Medium/Heavy Armor while my MC can have Animal Companion & Arcane Mount which effectively increase the MC's defense), I think it averages itself out. So I would say that using Regongar as a tank, as opposed to a heavy damage dealer, would be counter-effective (IMHO). I know you mentioned Valerie is meh as a tank during those early levels, that is true, but she'll become better & better with more levels. AC can't be underestimated in this game. Whatever Regongar can do in terms of casting own buffs to increase survivability, Valerie can do better (because buffs can affect her). But what Valerie won't be able to do is hit as hard as a two-hander with arcane spells. At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks.

That said, if you manage to find a way for Regongar to be a tank, I'll applaud you!

So, alignment was mentioned several posts back, and I wanted to say something about it. I really like how they implemented alignment in Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It reminds me of Planescape: Torment. As much as I like the Baldur's Gate series, your alignment is fixed there. By contrast, in a game like Planescape, and Kingmaker, your moral choices can make your character gravitate towards other alignments. What's even more interesting is that in some cases, your options are limited. For example, I usually play as a True Neutral (which is just called "Neutral" in Kingmaker). Sometimes, during a dialogue, I'll be given two extreme options, for example Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil. I don't like either choice because my character is Neutral, but I still have to pick one, since there's no other option. And I like the fact that this makes me step outside of my comfort zone (Though I totally understand that other people might not enjoy this, and that they would prefer to have at least nine moral options in every dialogue, one for every alignment). To me it's like the situation with items, in a weird way. You don't always get to loot the best equipment for your character, you have to work with what you have. Likewise, you don't always get to choose the best moral option for your character, you gotta work with the cards that you've been given, to use a gambling metaphor.

Whew! That was kind of a crazy rant, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt lol 🤪

Well, I felt restricted by picking only Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaotic choices in Kingmaker. It felt a bit artificial in many dialogues. Getting out of my comfort zone is good, but if the game instead shoehorns you into smth similar to "Lawful Stupid" ("Stupid Evil" or "Stupid Good"), it loses its advantage. In Wrath, I see the game now often offers you a 3rd or even 5th option where you can just respond without any alignment shift. That is a better way to handle the subject (IMHO). But I agree that seeing how your alignment evolves based on your choices is neat.
 

Blackraven

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Regarding min-maxing I understand you @Serg_BlackStrider and @mlnevese. It's how I feel about multi-classing in ways that make no sense to me in the story. I hope to (permanently) bump Gerrit's Wisdom along the way, and then I'll be ok with his stat spread.
That said, if you manage to find a way for Regongar to be a tank, I'll applaud you!
@Antimatter, it's as if you were watching me play lol. See below...

A shorter session today provided plenty to think about. We first went after Amiri's Tuskgutter, but that didn't quite go as expected. I wanted the party to rest (we were out of many of our spells), but upon arrival in the area Amiri couldn't contain herself. She attacked the giant boar on her own, suffered a massive blow, but injured the animal as well. She called the party to help "finish it", but that boar hit like a truck. First it knocked out Amiri herself. Then it reduced Gerrit to a single HP, after he'd somehow attcked the animal with his melee torch instead of his crossbow (my mistake). And finally it killed Regongar with a crit.
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Valerie, Jaethal, and Harrim, all equipped with shields, stood their ground and brought the beast down. Low on spells I don't think there was much else we could have done. (I don't think fleeiing works like in Baldur's Gate). Regongar hadn't been our tank @Antimatter, and this experience taught me he won't be for the time being. ;)
The party returned to Oleg's to get Regongar resurrected but Jhod sells his raise dead scrolls at 6000 GP a piece. We only had a few 100. I later remembered about Jamandi Aldori's signed raise dead scroll, and we used that. So how are we supposed to raise fallen companions? We don't have gold in abundance at all, at least in Act 1. And we spent some of it on a Glaive for Regongar, which should allow him to attack from behind Val.

The party went to fetch Fangberries for Bokken, a quest that led to my first reload. The first giant spiders and a single swarm were no big threat for the party We had quite a lot of alchemical fire flasks, and managed to kill the swarm with several of them. We reached level 3, which was encouraging. Regongar picked up the Dodge feat and learned Mage Armor and Enlarge Person. Harrim became proficient in an exotic weapon: Fauchards, so that he too can attack from a distance. With Amiri I went against my intention not to multi-class. Having faced the mighty Tuskgutter on her own, a coming of age ritual for boys in her lands as she told Gerrit, her God Gorum rewarded her for her bravery by anointing her as a Sacred Huntsmaster (Glory Domain). She now has a mastodon companion (an animal befitting a big, bulky barbarian) and she can cast Divine Favor and True Strike to help her in battle. Jaethal learned Shield of Faith, and Valerie got a little AC boost from her Heavy Armor Focus. Gerrit got Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, and learned Protection from Arrows and Glitterdust as his first level 2 spells. Emboldened by this surge in power, the party contintued their exploration of the caves. We dispatched two swarm and some giant spiders. With only two alchemical fire flasks left, a third swarm showed itself. We tried to flee but the swarm got to Harrim and Valerie and feasted on their unconscious bodies rather than coming after us (which makes total sense). So both were drained to death (Jaethal was knocked out but couldn't get drained). Now I would normally accept this outcome and go back to raise them, but as I said, we don't have anywhere near enough gold. Power Word: Reload and back to Oleg's to bring Bokken his Fangberries. Those remaining spiders will have to wait till later.

We're still there. We've leveled up Octavia (Transmuter 2, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so that she can become an Arcane Trickster). Right now I don't know what party to roll with. Regongar has proven himself as a heavy hitter with his masterwork glaive, and I like him in the party. But having Regongar without Octavia doesn't feel right, so I should bring in Octavia. But that means someone has to go. Probably Jaethal, now that Amiri is an Inquisitor as well. But aren't we going overboard with the arcane magic then, with Regongar, Octavia and Gerrit? The barely discernable voice of restartitis in the back of my head seems to whisper to me that I should roll a Druid, since there are none in the game so I won't have this type of dilemma. I shall resist!
 

Antimatter

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The party returned to Oleg's to get Regongar resurrected but Jhod sells his raise dead scrolls at 6000 GP a piece. We only had a few 100. I later remembered about Jamandi Aldori's signed raise dead scroll, and we used that. So how are we supposed to raise fallen companions? We don't have gold in abundance at all, at least in Act 1. And we spent some of it on a Glaive for Regongar, which should allow him to attack from behind Val.
And you got to the gist of one of the big(ger) problems I have with these games. The price to pay for a companion's death is indeed so big that a reload might seem like a better choice. Like, you spent the only scroll as early as the beginning of Chapter 1. What will happen when you get another death? And another? And another? Basically, in one of the next areas, the swarm cave, you already didn't have a choice and reloaded. Just because there is no way the player would continue the game with his companions dead (if you won that battle). Because the player misses on content this way, and it's worse than any reload.

This issue provides a lot of thoughts to go through. Just a few days ago I basically had to pause my play in order to decide whether to reload, use a raise dead item, or continue as is.

As for who needs to go: it's up to the party roles I think, and also character personalities. Basically, both Jaethal and Amiri are huge damage dealers, but Jaethal is also undead and (funny, no?) can't be killed, so she'd save you a lot of reloads or money. Personally, I would have dispatched Regongar and left only 2 arcane casters, this is more than enough.
 

m7600

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Has anyone ever done a Chaotic Evil run in Kingmaker? I'm asking because I think it would be almost impossible to win the game if in every dialogue you choose the Chaotic Evil [attack] option, lol. You would miss out on a ton of things, like NPCs, quests, XP, items, etc. But maybe it's possible to win the game even with a "Stupid Evil" character.
 

alice_ashpool

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Having got to half way through the new act, my honest conclusion is that you can quite easily Sword and Board Fighter 20 your way through the game without dying once. By the end Tower Shield + Angelic Halo + Armor Training + Combat Expertise should deal with the AC issues. Fighter specialisations will bring the saves up.

I'm a bit disappointed actually. Thought it would be harder. Maybe try a sword and board Heavy Armor barbarian heh.

The only issue is that sometimes I feel like I'm playing the lame duck character since Seelah can dish out lots more damage with her smites.
 

Xzarloxara

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In Kingmaker, I beat Fredero Sinnet with a really cheesy strategy. I don't think I'm spoiling too much for those that haven't played it if I say that it's a 1 vs 1 non-lethal combat between an NPC (Valerie) and this Fredero guy. The first time I played this game, he won the duel. In my second run, I won the fight, fair and square. But in this third run, since I turned off shared experience, Valerie wasn't at peak level for that fight. Fredero has a really high armor class, too much for my low level Valerie. She can only hit him with a natural 20. So here's what I did. I stocked up Valerie with Vanish/Invisibility potions, and also potions of Inflict Wounds (light, moderate, serious).

Some preliminaries about potions. You can drink them yourself, or you can "feed" them to another character. For example, if you have a potion of cure light wounds, you can "cast" it like a spell on another character and heal them. Roleplay-wise, you would be holding the bottle for them to drink, or something like that. For example, let's say that Charname as a healing potion, she can "cast" it on Amiri or some other NPC instead of drinking it herself. Now here's the interesting part: the same is true for the Inflict Wounds potions. Normally these are for undead characters (like Jaethal), who regain hit points by drinking these "negative" potions instead of the regular, curing ones. But you can also make another character drink a potion of Inflict Wounds, and it doesn't have to be a party member. It can be an enemy, like this Fredero Sinnet guy.

So, here's what I did. You can use two potions per round. Firstly, Valerie made Fredero drink a potion of Inflict Wounds. Mechanically, his armor class is irrelevant here. He automatically drinks the potion, no roll needed. Now, is that a loophole in the rules? I believe it is. It makes no sense to say that you can't hit him with your sword (unless you roll a nat 20) but that you can automatically force-feed him a potion of Inflict Wounds, lol. Secondly, I had Valerie drink a potion of Vanish / Invisibility, so that Fredero has a hard time connecting a hit. Repeat over and over until Fredero dies, lol. Super cheesy.

Ugh, I hated that fight. good to know there is a way to deal with it.

Speaking of nasty fights, I ran into a ghostly cleric that had a bunch of nasty spells which I had to deal with. It was really hard but I managed to win somehow... Eventually...
 

m7600

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At one point, you meet a dryad and a satyr who are in love. But they can't be together due to a curse, and they ask you for your help. You can ask them some reasonable questions, like "Who are you?" and "What happened to the village?". Or, you can choose the Chaotic Evil [attack] option. Instead of learning more about the interesting story behind this tragic couple, instead of helping them like any good Samaritan would do, you can simply say "The fey! That's the last thing we need - let's finish them!" That has to be the most "Stupid Evil / Chaotic Stupid" dialogue option in the entire game :ROFLMAO:
I really want to make a fourth run in the future and always choose the Chaotic Evil [attack] option in every dialogue, just to see if it's even possible to win the game that way.

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