Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous General Discussion, Playthroughs and Minimal/No Reload Thread

[Serg_BlackStrider]

Thanks!
And you have quite an interesting crew there as well! It will be nice to follow their adventure. The only thing I'm missing there is a lack of domains users which I personally think as a must have for unfair run.

 

[Cahir]

Congrats, and that's definitely well-executed! I'll be watching over Grim Face's progress closely.

And just to support your effort, I'll share my own party for the fellow Last Azlanti Unfair run. I had to add money to be able to create 5 customized characters, as for some reason each cost 4.5k gold, which was in no way fair or reasonable. As a concept for this run, I'm trying to use classes, weapons, and races I never (or rarely) used before.

Just reached lvl 4 after coming back from the Library and rested.

Half-Elf Sylvan Sorc, with a Leopard animal companion (Daredevil)
Kitsune Aldori Defender, 1 lvl dip into Scaled Fist, 1 lvl dip into Stigmitized Witch (for big AC boosts), with a Dueling Sword
Halfling Divine Hound, with a Dog animal companion (Bully)
Aasimar Witch Doctor
Tiefling Dirge Bard
Elf Vivisectionist, with an Elven Curve Blade

Spoiler

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Wait, do you want to finish WoTR for the first time till the end without companions and only using customized characters? Or it's just a test run to have some fun with builds?

 

[Antimatter]

Thanks!
And you have quite an interesting crew there as well! It will be nice to follow their adventure. The only thing I'm missing there is a lack of domains users which I personally think as a must have for unfair run.

Huh, I had to check this. Looks like only Cleric, Inquisitor, Hellknight (only with Pentamic Faith Discipline at level 3, 6, or 9), and Hunter (Divine Hunter archetype) can get those. I didn't use Sosiel much (preferring Daeran to him), and didn't look at those classes, so I totally missed the domains are a thing. Oh well.

Wait, do you want to finish WoTR for the first time till the end without companions and only using customized characters? Or it's just a test run to have some fun with builds?

I don't know where this will end, and how. As a Trickster (on Core), I stopped before the Ivory Sanctum, so I wanted to see different outcomes in early chapters. I still want to finish the "story" run with him, just got interested in the Unfair mechanics in order to understand how it works.

This game requires metaknowledge for almost everything, so I don't think I'd try Ivory Sanctum and the content after it on Unfair first. And you know, it's quite bold to assume my party will survive "till the end" with the Last Azlanti limitation.

Speaking about metagaming, I knew I had to kill the necromancer on the Market Square before the tavern attack (or I would miss the Nabassu fight later). Eventually, I figured out the approach: I ran though other enemies with both of my tanks straight to the necromancer, and tried to target Grease so that it doesn't affect my characters. Then I carefully put 2 of my melee damage dealers so that they could reach the necromancer as well. All this time, the hunter has been shooting at him. We managed to kill the nasty just before he resorted to casting Fear, which would have been a GG. My vivisectionist died shortly after, but considering there is one spare Terendelev's Scale I could use for free (well, and the price of the Restoration scroll, 700 gp), I decided to accept the result. This fight is sketchy for the current level.

Spoiler

 

[Antimatter]

While I don't like some parts of Unfair (mostly, the Prologue with too much RNG dependency), some parts I'm growing to appreciate. Fights vs more difficult opponents turn into puzzles, rather than being copies of themselves (maybe this will change later, I don't know). I can only compare what I'm seeing to my previous runs through Chapter 1 on first Normal and then Core. Fights as puzzles is something I appreciate in cRPGs, it's been that way since playing BG with SCS, and then Larian games.

Take the Tavern Defense battle, for example. Previously, I had to learn the basics, but once I got them, the fight went alright no matter if I placed/moved my characters ideally. Now with Unfair, I had to redo the fight at least 10 times. Step by step learning what to do during wave 1 (how to evade Stinking Clouds mostly), then how and when to move to better placements for wave 2, and then, of course, wave 3. For example, I learned that I need to move at least 2 characters to the spot where the second wave arrives earlier, to handle a single alchemist there. Or how to buff 2 characters (the leopard and my duelist) during the first stage before the horde reached them.

I actually found the key to the Minotaur by accident, using an Expeditious Retreat scroll for better mobility throughout the fight. And it so happened that the Minotaur started to target my main character, who was under the effect of that additional speed. I just kited the bull around while my characters kept hitting it with attacks of opportunity.

So the Tavern combat really opened up on this difficulty setting. It wasn't just "keep spamming Grease/Winter's Grasp" at choke-points. I felt the need to constantly move characters around in reaction to the stage of the fight, which reminded me the RtwP genre comes from RTS games.

Spoiler

We reached lvl 5 just after the fight (very lucky, it was 12040 xp when the threshold was 12k), and I picked Expeditious Retreat for my sorcerer, along with Mirror Image. Let's see if these tactics will be of use at any other future point.

Also, noticed just now that my bard picked Bardiche instead of Fauchard due to my mistake, but I'll stick to this. I haven't used bardiches either, so I guess the meta-game choice of fauchards will have to wait longer (previously, I only tried glaives in WotR).

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

I'm curious what areas you've cleared before Tavern Defense? Because in my case I always have 5 levels under my belt at that moment and it's easier dramatically. No damage to tavern defenses at all and I even have a "Truly Important Deed" achievement (got it on Hard difficulty) - save all Courtesans in Daeran's mansion and save Booze during Tavern Defense: just dont allow the Arsonists to burn the booze cart during the defender's heart defense. The only arsonists that can actually hit this cart are the ones that spawn with the minotaur boss, kill them and you should be safe, the cart can tank some hits but its best if you dont let those hits happen. But all this was while using XP share switch early on and clearing all eastern areas, Daeran's mansion, all the market square, pitaxian wine cellar, library. I'm curious if that will be enough on fair Unfair mode.

 

[Antimatter]

I could only do basic stuff before the attack: get Woljif, complete his quest, get Ember, start the Azata quest, free the tieflings (only the minimum stuff at the market), beeline to the library (that's when the party members get fatigue), teleport to the tavern, rest. Then face the necromancer in the market, complete Daeran's mansion (btw, the fury demon there was a pain), complete Estrod's Tower, finish the Azata quest, and return to the tavern. It required at least 2 rests in-between while traveling (after the necromancer, after the mansion), and then I rested at the inn, and the attack happened. I wouldn't dare face any of the stronger opponents (e.g. a vrock or an invisible demon in the market, or any of the side areas, be it a kineticist, an alchemist, or whatnot) at that level. I'm curious how you will handle it now, but my initial impression is that the XP share influences it substantially. Like, just a difference between lvl 4 and lvl 5 is TREMENDOUS. Lvl 5 allows for resistance vs Element (Communal), and that's just one example. Or Hideous Laughter for the Sylvan Sorc (they get it at lvl 5 due to their class)...

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

You don't need level 5 to beat all those strong opponents or cast resistance vs elements (communal) from your books. I always buy scrolls of protection/resistance vs acid (alchemist), electricity (kineticist, Tower of Estrod), cold (shadow demon), fire (Tower of Estrod, brimorak). My first goal after Woljif quest is kineticist and Tower of Estrod. The gold for kineticist's headgear and other loot is enough to buy other scrolls and you need to rest after those tasks. Then clear the whole market square in one go, Daeran's estate, Pitax wine cellar, library, back to tavern. In one of my runs I even somehow managed to clear ALL side areas before the attack (it was on hard difficulty) but it was only once and later I usually need to visit western areas after attack on tavern. It seems somehow connected with Storyteller and whether you talk to him after library or not (trigger). But all this was while using XP share switch. Will see how it will be this time.

 

[Antimatter]

I lack your knowledge about what to expect, and how to prepare, as I only went through those fights a few times before, and this is my first Unfair run. You're right, of course. But I also now read that players prefer to wait for lvl 5 in order to get access to Haste (and in my party, I don't have that yet) and Outflank (well, nobody has it yet here either).

That said, I did 3 areas: the kineticist, the alchemist, and the succubus. The Kineticist one-shot the leopard for 90 damage after 0.2 initiative (yikes), but then failed a SS against Hideous Laughter, and that was it.

The alchemist... Well, that's where I had to find out people just savescum for the Slumber hex + Coup De Grace combo. In my party, I didn't have that, so I was persistent (so that I could play with only this party and not retreat to take Ember--or just call me lazy, heh) and had to find another way. What I learned is that I had to open the fight with Hideous Laughter (reload if the spell penetration didn't work or he saved against it), then immediately summon undead fodder to distract the mimics, then go through them with my attackers and reach the alchemist, and then try to kill him earlier than he kills everyone with his bombs (I didn't have any scrolls, so I relied on my own cast of resistance vs acid (communal)). Another condition was to cast Grease to affect the mimics.

Spoiler

Now, the succubus. 40 AC (!). At first, it seemed clear enough: block the door chokepoint with 2 characters so that the succubus never left the first room. Grease worked against those 2 humanoids, so it wasn't an issue. Extremely high AC was. That's why people spam Slumber hex. But I had to rely on a stupid AI of this succubus - for some reason, she wanted to reach my witch doctor no matter what and kept just running against the wall of my characters (for more AoO, of course). I even made my main character and duelist auto-intimidate every round. There is a very important button in the UI - hold (your position). So I just waited for my characters to hit the succubus on a critical. Took so much time that all buffs ran out (I had to recast some from scrolls), but it was done.

Spoiler

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

I would recommend you to try turn-based combat at least for those hard encounters. It's much more manageble and if you can utilize a surprize round then at least for this whole round you'll target a much lower flat-footed AC which is a huge difference. And if some of your characters win an initiative then they will target flat-footed AC during next round as well before their opponents get their turn. This could even win a whole encounter sometimes. Initiative rule suprime as they say And one more thing worth noting is that if your character have multiple attacks per round and win an initiative against their opponent than in turn-based mode all their attacks in first round will target flat-footed AC. But in RTwP mode there is only 2 sec delay in initiative sequence so lets say your fighter with 2 or more APR win an initiative and their opponent is next in line. In this case only first attack of your fighter will target a flat-footed AC and after 2 sec delay their opponent's turn begins so you'll have to target a whole AC with your subsequent attacks in this round.
As for Outflank feat - only full BAB characters can get it on level 5 and in my crew I have none of those, so it's only on level 7. Haste will be a boon sure but if I'm not mistaken there are scrolls of Haste on sale there as well.

 

[Cahir]

Wait, what? @Antimatter, do you play WoTR on RTwP mode? That's insane. It's unplayable to me that way. If there was no turn based, I wouldn't even touch it

 

[Antimatter]

I tried enabling TB mode a few times. For me, it has pros and cons. One of the cons is that I can't take off items from quick slots when it's not the character's turn. It might be minor, but sometimes I keep tossing a wand around. But more than anything, I've got used to the RtwP nature of this game (and Kingmaker), and it's hard for me to imagine all fights will be TB and thus long. I use kiting a lot, and overall, placement of my characters changes frequently over combat. While in TB, it's mostly static. Noted about the flat-footed difference; that seems major, so if nothing else works, I'll use the mode for a particularly hard fight.

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

Both modes have their pros and cons, sure, but not being able to take off items from quick slots (like in PoE) alone with other equipment like armor/rings etc. is clear 'fair play' for me. I never liked an unrealistic approach of BG players, when they switch gear like armor/boots/weapons or other protection items on the fly mid combat just a split of a second before some projectile hit them. Especialy if throwing equipment between party members. Vanilla BG behaviour of 'unpause game when browsing an inventory' is clear example of somewhat 'fair play' too. Sure thing there aren't any 'rules' how to play a single-player game, this is just my point of view and my personal approach.

 

[Antimatter]

Fair enough, it's not realistic or immersive, yes. It's just that I always preferred to distance combat from story in these games. In first-person or third-person games where the camera is closer, sure, but for cRPGs, I usually look at combat as a collection of tools and a chessboard (yes, even with RtwP, still a chessboard, same as BG with SCS). Didn't like the PoE aspect exactly because it felt limiting - to me personally (and neither did I like the static combat there, exactly by the same reason, too little reactivity, too much dependecy on pre-combat placement). Probably swapping the item when the projectile is flying over (in BG) is cheezing, but fortunately, neither Larian games, or these, allow it. For me, items for quick slots (all potions, all scrolls, all wands etc) are resources I can use as I wish depending on what is going on in the fight, compared to some setup I had to follow before the combat started.

 

[Antimatter]

I used your advice and purchased protective spells while in the Tavern. Should be prepared for brimoraks and other specific stuff.

For the Nabassu fight, I more or less used my approach from the previous difficulty, which is: send one character (tank) to the place the demon spawns at (make sure you have Death Ward on them), place another character a bit half-way there (so that they are separate from the rest of the group) and try to make the demon use its Mass Paralysis on that character, then hurry up and Grease all the places around the demon so that ghouls become prone.

What I added here are potions of Bless Weapon, these are amazing (only 5 are sold, I used 2 for this fight): they overcome DR of Nabassu and automatically confirm critical hits. What I messed is my witch doctor getting paralysed (could be prevented with Freedom of Movement buff), so I couldn't heal the from distance. However, time she was unavailable was just about enough for my party to hit through ghouls and I still had 2 pets for the demon to "go through". Crits thanks to Bless Weapon solved the fight. Unfortunately, none of 4 Hideous Laughter attempts landed due to high spell resistance. The duelist died, so we had to use an expensive Raise Dead scroll (6k gold) and then 2 Restoration scrolls (1.4k gold) to remove his 2 permanent negative levels.

Maybe I could have replayed the fight for a better result, but I think I'm quite content with what I got. Even not on Unfair, it was normal for me to get at least 2 deaths before the Gray Garrison in Chapter 1. I'm more than happy there was no other casualty in this fight. In the first screenshot, you can see where Mara stands - that was the place to aggro the mass Hold Humanoid spell, while the rest of the party was further away down the same "street". And the tank was positioned right next to the Nabassu (in the same screneshot).

Spoiler

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

Congrats on dealing with Nabasu! Bless Weapon is indeed amazing, too bad it's only availible for Paladins (who I don't like at all, Seelah switches to other classes right at level 2). It's also very handy later on in Gargoyles' cave fight. Aside from potions from innkeeper there are also some (5?) scrolls for sale on scrolls vendor stock.

Edit: I've found another source of Bless Weapon spell for my Crew - Glory Domain for Lann (Zen Archer (3)/Sacred Huntsmaster). It makes Bless Weapon spell availible at SH level 4 (which will be for Lann at character level 7, not bad at all). I don't remember at what party level the Gargoyle's Cave encounter take place, but a real possibility to have this spell not being a Paladin is nice.

 

[Antimatter]

I did it, I completed what I had considered to be extremely difficult: beat Act 1 on Unfair for the first time. And surprisingly, the Gray Garrison wasn't as hard as I had feared. Probably the party balance and my own play have caught up. Even for my first time, I denied Jeslyn's insects. I had the party hasted, so we got to her quickly enough to make her prone before she summoned the pests. For other difficult fights (such as the Garrison alchemist, the minotaurs, and a few others), we used doors as chokepoints for, again, Grease.

Grease was the key in the final Act 1 against Minagho. Automatically failing a saving throw and then becoming a target of crits from my enlarged damage dealers (thank you for the advice about scrolls of Bless Weapon).

I'm not sure if the Gargoyle's Cave encounter will occur after you reach level 7; I don't remember. I'd say you have a good chance there. I guess another option can be picking this spell when MC-ing into Loremaster.

Spoiler

 

[mlnevese]

Holy magic is very useful in this game on all difficulty levels both for protection and attack. You'll be dealing with lots of demons that are vulnerable to anything holy. That is one of the reasons I think angel is such a powerful path in the game, even after the nerfs.

 

[Antimatter]

So, for @Serg_BlackStrider: my party reached lvl 7 after the suspicious drow ambush area. All I did was Sosiel's and Seelah's quests (appropriate areas), didn't even get a chance to get to the crusade camp (as it was moved), and got that ambush on the way there. And once I arrived at the camp, the Hellknights messenger showed up. So the Gargoyle's Cave is next.

But how did I do the Sosiel area, you might ask. Well, that was the first case when I used the TB mode, and it really helped. Of course, even that didn't work a few times when my main character got one- or two-shot before even taking his turn. But I saw how helpful the mode can be, indeed. The area is difficult, as you arrive without any buffs and get surrounded by tough enemies.

Spoiler

I kept the TB mode on for the ending encounter in that area (another uncomfortable fight because of where the game puts your party), and even for Seelah's quest. I saw how useful the mode is when I could do a surprise round against 3 brimoraks there. It feels like a bit of a different game, though, e.g., I still need to get used to EITHER moving or attacking during the same round.

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

BTW, @Antimatter, I'm curious if you cleared the 100% of Shield Maze with your current Sylvan Sorcerer and if there is enough exp out there to get level 3 without 'XP sharing OFF' before leaving into the Gray Garrison?

I'm actually restarted my Magic Deceiver, slightly tweaking him with Acolyte background instead of previous Aldory Swordsman to get bonus to both of my main skills (Persuasion and Lore [Religion]) and this time Kenabres Caves went out extreamly smooth with only Seelah taking 2 hp damage early on from Young Sentipede. I preserved all my spell casts for small earth elementals and make choices in book event to get Heroism buff. This time two of those elementals fell even before engaging Seelah with the third one fell soon after. Clean victory. And Heroism buff last long enough to help persuade Horgus Gwerm to double his money fee. We spent all our money on useful stuff and proceed into the Maze. There we took off first group of cultists, then two trios of Corrupted Mongrels and the first Hand of Hosilla. So far no-reloads and combined spells work quite nice but exp flow is so thin that I'm afraid we'll not see level 3 there... Now sitting on 2689/5000 exp.

Level Up 2:
* Grim Face - Magic Deceiver (2), Skills: Lore [Religion] +1, Persuasion +1, Spell usage 2/day;
* Freya - Bully (2), Skills: Mobility +1, UMD +1; (level 1 feat - Dodge, skills Athletics +1, Mobility +1);
* Seelah - SCM (1), Skills (5): Athletics (2:2), Mobility (1:2), Knowledge [World] (0:1), Lore [Nature] (1:1), Perception (1:1), UMD (0:0) plan up to 5 points;
* Big Bird - Bully (1), Feat - Dodge, Skills (2): Athletics (0:0), Mobility (1:1), UMD (1:1);
* Camellia - Spirit Hunter (2), Skills (2): Mobility (1:2), Trickery (1:2), Perception (0:0); Hex: Protective Luck;
* Lann - Zen Archer (2), Skills (3): Stealth (2:2), Perception (1:2), Zen Archer Bonus Feat: Precise Shot, Way of the Bow (Longbow): Weapon Focus [Longbow];

Grim Face, Halfling (Hasty), Oblate - Acolyte, 5/18/10/12/10/20, Magic Deceiver (Living Deity, Wolf pet) fair Unfair.

Spoiler

Kenabres Caves:

Neathholm:

Shield Maze:

Tried to have some rest only to be interrupted:

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

I still need to get used to EITHER moving or attacking during the same round.

Why? You only have one of those (move/5 ft. step or attack) during surprize round but in the following rounds you can make 1 swift action (like Smite Evil/Chaos), 1 move action (or 5 ft. step, which is VERY helpful and only availible in TB mode), 1 standard action (attack or cast regular spell) and unlimited number of free actions.

From online Guide by chris-williams:

Spoiler

Even when using real-time-with-pause (RTWP), Wrath of the Righteous uses a turn-based underlying ruleset which determines how your character acts. A creature's turn consists of a move action and a standard action. During a move action, you can move your full distance (30' for most characters) or take certain other actions which are specified as using the move action in the ability description. Moving up to 5' does not consume your move action.

As a standard action, you can make a single weapon attack or cast most spells. You can also take other actions which are specified as using the standard action in the ability description. Rather than taking a standard action, you can choose to take a second move action instead.

If you do not move, you can take a full-round action. During a full-round action, you can make multiple weapon attacks if you are able to or cast a spell that requires a full-round action (such as most summoning spells). You can take certain other actions which are specified as using a full-round action in the ability description.

Certain abilities are described as requiring a swift action (casting a quickened spell, for example). Swift actions do not prevent you from taking a full-round action but you can only perform one swift action in any turn.

Finally, some abilities are described as free actions (for example, a Barbarian engaging his Rage ability). Free actions take no time and you can perform as may free actions as you like during a turn.