Philosophical Musings: A Forum Game

[JustKneller]

Time to throw something into the mix:

"It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done."

Agree or disagree? Explain.

 

[m7600]

"It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return.

Hegel called it "The objective spirit", as opposed to what he called "the subjective spirit". I don't believe in such things myself.

That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end.

Not quite, that's a False Cause Fallacy again. First of all, there is no such spirit. Second of all, even if there was such a spirit, it would not dissipate do to something happening to the planet Earth.

For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done."

No, this is false. Everything that appears after, and including, the word "although", is true, but the part that says "For this reason" is false. Again, this is a False Cause Fallacy.

 

[JustKneller]

Fair enough. I thought the "world coming to and end" bit was a little over the top. But what about the idea of trying to recreate the past to capture the feel of it? Is it possible? Why or why not?

 

[m7600]

Fair enough. I thought the "world coming to and end" bit was a little over the top.

Agreed.

But what about the idea of trying to recreate the past to capture the feel of it? Is it possible? Why or why not?

I mean, there's Renaissance fairs, for example. But those aren't players. They're... people that go to historical/fantasy/sci-fi/etc. fairs.

 

[O_Bruce]

1) Agree. It is basic primary school geography.
2) Also agree. Partially because, again, primary school geography, partially because "regions" have a nice ring for it that would account for cultural differences etc.
3) Agree about Mexico belonging in North America. However, the way I see it, it is culturally separated from United States and Canada. The difference of culture between Mexico and United States seems much more clear to me than, for example, between States or between States and Canada.
4) Agree and I don't know how to elaborate, so I won't

 

[m7600]

1) Agree. It is basic primary school geography.
2) Also agree. Partially because, again, primary school geography, partially because "regions" have a nice ring for it that would account for cultural differences etc.
3) Agree about Mexico belonging in North America. However, the way I see it, it is culturally separated from United States and Canada. The difference of culture between Mexico and United States seems much more clear to me than, for example, between States or between States and Canada.
4) Agree and I don't know how to elaborate, so I won't

Based on your answers, here's what I think (I could be wrong):

1) You believe in basic education.
2) You believe in complex education.
3) You believe in very complex education.
4) You believe in science.

 

[JustKneller]

I mean, there's Renaissance fairs, for example. But those aren't players. They're... people that go to historical/fantasy/sci-fi/etc. fairs.

I would argue that a Ren fair isn't capturing the spirit of an age. Instead, it's just an amusement park that borrows the aesthetic. But, maybe I should avoid the term "spirit" and instead use something like "gestalt"?

I'm thinking specifically with regards to the OSR movement. On one hand, I support it and see the value in resurrecting pre-WotC design principles. On the other hand, I question whether any particular designer can accurately (with their own singular project) capture the "spirit/gestalt" of classic D&D. If so, then we wouldn't have a billion OSR retroclones running around. But on the other other hand, I don't necessarily see this as a redundancy since no two tables seemed to play the same in classic as everyone had their own house rules. So, each retroclone is just one person's house rules on top of a generally mutually agreed upon framework. On the other other other hand, it really is a redundancy since, if you want to play classic, you can just get the originals on PDF (I basically have a folder of all things B/X), throw in your own house rules, and just use classic. Fortunately, I have a bone golem helping me with this post in order to manage all the hands here.

You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Are they accomplishing anything by doing so? Is this capturing the spirit of an age when the original tools to do so still exist and are available?

 

[m7600]

But, maybe I should avoid the term "spirit" and instead use something like "gestalt"?

Why? "Gestalt" means "Form". There's nothing down that rabbit hole. Trust me, I've been down that one as well. In other words, do you want a rabbit for dinner or what?

I question whether any particular designer can accurately (with their own singular project) capture the "spirit/gestalt" of classic D&D.

Hmmm... well, you could ask @Black Elk what he thinks. He knows more about that than I do.

Is this capturing the spirit of an age when the original tools to do so still exist and are available?

Well, I already told you what I think: there's no such thing as a spirit of an age. There's no such thing as a spirit in general, actually.

 

[Black Elk]

Ren fair for me captures a very specific age, and maybe a spirit, though that might be bit of a stretch. The era would be like 1993, probably with a knock off Metallica t-shirt underneath whatever thrown together medieval tunic. I feel somehow certain that rabbit might have been an option on the menu, or some sort of pheasant or quail at least. Likely with one of those drinking horns too, for drunk Boromir, with that same look. But of course I wouldn't have been old enough to drink yet, so maybe it had Pepsi in it? Seems a safe bet! I'm not sure if anyone showed out for the various carnival antics like a joust or climbing on rope ladders, or just to admire the swords and the dresses, though it had a vibe for sure. Like if it's blended somehow with those sticks that are used to juggle other sticks, or happy hippie games of that sort. It's gotta be best somewhere out in the sticks right, or in the wine country maybe, and a slight remove. Though the pop version on that would be like Medieval Times in the Cable Guy I guess right? I feel like that's the enduring impression. Like the Wizards are maybe onto some Medieval Times torture chamber room showcase in Anaheim, with the corpo gift shop attached. Like that's the theme park variant on it, doubtless. The place where they used to hold the actual ren fair is probably a starbucks by now hehe. So it's all a bit fleeting. Whatever can be said about recapturing the spirit of those ages past, or in D&D a twist on the same, fear of spontaneous time travel is a pretty fun premise though I think. Anything with a Dark Goonies quality to it there's a good chance I'm on board, but I'm not sure if the ship will sail or if there would be skeletons left to man the crew!?

 

[m7600]

Ren fair for me captures a very specific age, and maybe a spirit, though that might be bit of a stretch. The era would be like 1993, probably with a knock off Metallica t-shirt underneath whatever thrown together medieval tunic. I feel somehow certain that rabbit might have been an option on the menu, or some sort of pheasant or quail at least. Likely with one of those drinking horns too, for drunk Boromir, with that same look. But of course I wouldn't have been old enough to drink yet, so maybe it had Pepsi in it? Seems a safe bet! I'm not sure if anyone showed out for the various carnival antics like a joust or climbing on rope ladders, or just to admire the swords and the dresses, though it had a vibe for sure. Like if it's blended somehow with those sticks that are used to juggle other sticks, or happy hippie games of that sort. It's gotta be best somewhere out in the sticks right, or in the wine country maybe, and a slight remove. Though the pop version on that would be like Medieval Times in the Cable Guy I guess right? I feel like that's the enduring impression. Like the Wizards are maybe onto some Medieval Times torture chamber room showcase in Anaheim, with the corpo gift shop attached. Like that's the theme park variant on it, doubtless. The place where they used to hold the actual ren fair is probably a starbucks by now hehe. So it's all a bit fleeting. Whatever can be said about recapturing the spirit of those ages past, or in D&D a twist on the same, fear of spontaneous time travel is a pretty fun premise though I think. Anything with a Dark Goonies quality to it there's a good chance I'm on board, but I'm not sure if the ship will sail or if there would skeletons left to man the crew!?

@JustKneller translate this to plain and simple English, if you would be so kind.

 

[JustKneller]

Why? "Gestalt" means "Form". There's nothing down that rabbit hole. Trust me, I've been down that one as well. In other words, do you want a rabbit for dinner or what?

Finding the right terms to communicate and ask what I am asking sometimes kinda feels like playing a text adventure game where you need to get the syntax just right. If the alternative option is rabbit for dinner, I'll take the rabbit.

@JustKneller translate this to plain and simple English, if you would be so kind.

I'm not sure if I can. But, I think Black Elk is agreeing with me that a Ren fair is derivative, but not authentic to the source material.

 

[m7600]

Let's add some ambiance to this. Thanks to @JustKneller for the reference.

 

[m7600]

Field of Dreams sounds like a terrifying movie, though. I haven't watched it yet, but I did read the plot on Wikipedia, and just reading the ending was enough for me to categorize it as a Horror movie.

 

[JustKneller]

It's not an accurate representation, but it supports your theory.

 

[m7600]

It's not an accurate representation, but it supports your theory.

No it doesn't. I endorse scientism, 100%. Plus the basic ontology of that movie is, in my view, false (understanding the word "ontology" here as a collection of beliefs about Reality itself).

The human mind just doesn't work like that, it simply doesn't work how Field of Dreams suggests (but, as a work of speculative fiction, it's awe-inspiring). Furthermore, reality itself just doesn't work like that, i.e. you can't "dream" things into existence (but, again, as an artistic idea in speculative fiction, it's awe-inspiring).

I have no doubt in my mind that Field of Dreams is one of the best movies ever made. I told this to my buddy from Iowa and I said "so, you believe in Iowa patriotism?" And he said "Not at all, I think New Orleans is much more interesting!" (his answer was intentionally humorous, he meant it as a joke but he also believes it seriously, while being an Iowa Patriot at the same time. Yeah I know, it's complicated thinking. He's insanely smart. I'm trying to get him to read Peirce but he just likes Emerson better. I can see why, but I prefer Peirce myself (no disrespect to Emerson, he was objectively a genius, like Kant).

 

[m7600]

Me: (thinking to myself) "I hope that my players are having a good time with Philosophical Musings, it's a good way to play a game without dice."

Inside the mind of @JustKneller :

 

[m7600]

*Raise Thread*

This is the Christmas Vibe / Spirit / whatever you want to call it that this Game needs for this Christmas: