The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for Candlekeep Annex Participants- Newbie or Veteran

[Alesia_BH]

Demiliches don't have MR. Well, Kangaxx has the 10% from his ring, but that's all. You don't need a resistance-lowering effect, you just need to dispel the specific protections.

The spell casting demiliches version does have MR, 100%.

You are correct that the demilich.itm ring grants immunities to specific spells in addition to the blanket low level immunities. And, yes, that does imply a need to choose carefully if you’re using non-HLA spells. With the classical HLA configuration you can navigate around that complication.

As for the HP bonus, that's present in my install. His total is 187. I’m inclined to view that as a welcome change, whether it was intended or not. It remedies the absurdity of a spell or two nixing him, a long time complaint of many players.

 

[jmerry]

Oops. I just didn't spot that MR looking at the code. The rest of the info should be good, though.

The high hit points are definitely a bug. SCC gives extra hit points to dragons, but those are huge monsters - they should feel bulky. A demilich is a tiny little thing; it makes sense that if you can find something it isn't resistant or immune to, it goes splat.
And of course, there's no code directly saying "give this enemy extra HP" - if that effect was intended, it would be included in the "give this enemy new stats" function call.

But hey, if you want to play that way, it's a single-player game.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Oops. I just didn't spot that MR looking at the code. The rest of the info should be good, though.

Yes the rest is accurate. I had to check the demilich.itm file to confirm because, again, I don't have in game experience with that mechanic. The classic HLA setup makes DB an obvious go-to. You can easily stock enough, even with the elevated hitpoint total.

The high hit points are definitely a bug. SCC gives extra hit points to dragons, but those are huge monsters - they should feel bulky. A demilich is a tiny little thing; it makes sense that if you can find something it isn't resistant or immune to, it goes splat.
And of course, there's no code directly saying "give this enemy extra HP" - if that effect was intended, it would be included in the "give this enemy new stats" function call.

I'm familiar with the debate on that issue, including the code. I do think it may be an error.

At the same time, I'm inclined to side with those who see it as a welcome change. One view is that Kangaxx is small and should therefore succumb quickly if you find a vulnerability. Another view is that he is an epic creature and therefore shouldn't be killable by any old bloke with a Sunray. That's been a long standing complaint in the community and I do think the current total, 187, does a nice job of remedying the problem.

Other casters in the game have inflated HP totals presently, and I welcome those changes too. Toglerias is at 131. Perth, 125. Sion, 137. They're incongruent with the conventional game mechanic, but well calibrated to reduce the probability of a one hit nix. It ends up playing better, even if it's a deviation.

(Btw, in the thread on SCS Kangaxx's HP you correctly stated his MR value, 100%. I was kind of surprised when you got that wrong here. I actually went back to that thread to confirm it was you in that discussion.)

 

[Borco]

Thank you both for the valuable feedback!

I have completely overlooked the fact that "Spellcasting Demiliches" component, which I confirm I have in place, nerfs the demilich spell immunity. It seems that I might need to refresh my SCS readme knowledge, lol.

This is obviously a game changer, since L6-L9 damage spells are suddenly a thing. Being an enchanter, the direct damage options are limited to FoD, Prismatic Spray, ADHW, and HLAs (I'm disregarding the damage potential of Sphere of Chaos ). In my current SCS install ADHW no longer affects undead and other "lifeless" creatures, so that's not an option. Prismatic Spray has already seen some play, but trying to make it work without Malison and against 100% MR feels like a long shot. FoD could be used for some marginal damage boost, assuming we can push it through the MR and spare an extra L7 slot to squeeze it in the book, of which I'm not sure.

Planetar's Firestorm and Dragon's Breath seem seems to be perfect - we'll just need to figure out L9 spell slot management and ensure we're able to keep the powder dry throughout the initial phases of the battle. But it's starting to look manageable, so many thanks again!

 

[Borco]

Also, the demilich immunity item grants immunity to a bunch of specific spells, in addition to the immunity based on spell level. Basically, anything indiscriminate with an AoE that could include the caster. And SCS doesn't touch these specific immunities. So Horrid Wilting (party-friendly) or Prismatic Spray (cone) works or Finger of Death, but Incendiary Cloud or Fire Storm doesn't.
Energy types that can work: fire, acid, magic. Cold and electric damage doesn't; demiliches are immune to those types, just like ordinary liches.

Noted, I'm striking out Firestorm from the list of options !

 

[Alesia_BH]

I have completely overlooked the fact that "Spellcasting Demiliches" component, which I confirm I have in place, nerfs the demilich spell immunity. It seems that I might need to refresh my SCS readme knowledge, lol.

Yes, lol. I was sort of hedging in my initial reply because of this. I’ve seen you use spellcasting demiliches, but you seemed to be assuming the standard ones, so I wasn’t 100% sure. That’s why I floated an idea that would work for either.

(The other issue was that I have limited experience with the 6 - 8 mechanic because I’ve historically used DBs.)

Btw, are you using the revised HLA mechanic now?

 

[Alesia_BH]

In my current SCS install ADHW no longer affects undead and other "lifeless" creatures, so that's not an option

Good point.

When double checking Jmerry’s list I confirmed that the non-Wish version of ADHW wasn’t on the demilich.itm exclusion list. That doesn’t necessarily mean that a different component couldn’t preclude it from working, though.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Noted, I'm striking out Firestorm from the list of options !

The Firestorm exclusion is the one that I do have first hand experience with. I noticed that in Alena’s 4am trial.

(In the 4pm re-do we switched to Sunrays.)

 

[jmerry]

(I'm disregarding the damage potential of Sphere of Chaos )

Sphere of Chaos is also on the exclusion list, for a different reason than the AoE damage spells. It gets excluded because it's, in part, a polymorph spell. Anything with polymorph immunity has to block all of the polymorph spells individually because of how those mechanics work, and the non-polymorph effects of SoC are a casualty of this.
My tweaks include a component that fixes this, redoing things so polymorph immunity only blocks that effect (now a subspell) and lets the rest of the spell through.

The damage potential of Sphere of Chaos is a 10% chance of 3d6 fire damage, save negates (per round). That "save negates" is the real dealbreaker here. Even if you installed the tweak so he wasn't outright immune, a non-Transmuter mage would still have zero chance of dealing damage to Kangaxx with the spell.

In my current SCS install ADHW no longer affects undead and other "lifeless" creatures, so that's not an option.

That's a v35 component, and I haven't played SCS since v34. So, naturally, I didn't realize it was a thing. And I was only looking at a vanilla install when compiling that list of spells. In any case, noted.

Incidentally, the Wish version of ADHW is on the exclusion list because it's indiscriminate. All that damage to everyone including the wisher, and the projectile's only there for the visuals.

 

[Borco]

Yes, lol. I was sort of hedging in my initial reply because of this. I’ve seen you use spellcasting demiliches, but you seemed to be assuming the standard ones, so I wasn’t 100% sure. That’s why I floated an idea that would work for either.

(The other issue was that I have limited experience with the 6 - 8 mechanic because I’ve historically used DBs.)

Btw, are you using the revised HLA mechanic now?

Yuppers, thank you again for questioning my assumptions and to @jmerry for explicitly pointing this out!

As for the HLAs, I'm indeed using the standard set-up whereby these are treated as memorized L9 spells. I'm perfectly content with the mechanic, although the book management can certainly be tricky. I'm currently looking at two options here, although one of these may require us to level up a bit and acquire L9 spell slots for the simmy.

For sake of completeness, I'll note that I'm now using contingencies and sequencers as special abilities to permit their use with an enchanter. The "Make Sequencers and Contingencies learnable by all mages" SCS component is now bundled with other spell changes that I wanted to avoid and I also wanted to spare myself the effort of customizing the install further. The net effect is that I have access to Spell Trigger in SoA (which I believe is random drop only) and that we also had an early access to Chain Contingency. I also probably won't be using this with a sorcerer.

 

[Borco]

Sphere of Chaos is also on the exclusion list, for a different reason than the AoE damage spells. It gets excluded because it's, in part, a polymorph spell. Anything with polymorph immunity has to block all of the polymorph spells individually because of how those mechanics work, and the non-polymorph effects of SoC are a casualty of this.
My tweaks include a component that fixes this, redoing things so polymorph immunity only blocks that effect (now a subspell) and lets the rest of the spell through.

The damage potential of Sphere of Chaos is a 10% chance of 3d6 fire damage, save negates (per round). That "save negates" is the real dealbreaker here. Even if you installed the tweak so he wasn't outright immune, a non-Transmuter mage would still have zero chance of dealing damage to Kangaxx with the spell.


That's a v35 component, and I haven't played SCS since v34. So, naturally, I didn't realize it was a thing. And I was only looking at a vanilla install when compiling that list of spells. In any case, noted.

Incidentally, the Wish version of ADHW is on the exclusion list because it's indiscriminate. All that damage to everyone including the wisher, and the projectile's only there for the visuals.

Noted and thank you for the insight! To be fair, I haven't even considered the Wish option as enchanters can only wish they could cast it.

 

[Alesia_BH]

As for the HLAs, I'm indeed using the standard set-up whereby these are treated as memorized L9 spells.

Ok. That simplifies things. The 6 - 8 options are underwhelming with ADHW excluded, and with the v35 HP boost the HLAs as special abilities component can force you to get creative. With the classical HLA setup it’s a simple matter of tapping 9 for DBs, leveraging illusions as needed.

 

[Borco]

Astral, my enchanter, is sending his regards!