The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for Candlekeep Annex Participants- Newbie or Veteran

Finarfin

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122
Just to clarify, what I meant was that in the vast majority of battles it’s smarter to skip PI and Wish and allocate those slots to other spells. PI and Wish are superfluous in most fights and they crowd out other spells. They also add unnecessary complexity and introduce risk, via PI stasis or the djinni dialogue. What I meant by “fully stocked book” is a book filled with productive spells, to the exclusion of the spell book management tools, PI and Wish.

In general, I see no need to restrict PI and Wish because they are either suboptimal or indispensable, depending on the circumstances. The exception would be sending a PI up ahead as a disposable copy, allowing you to dump your spell book without risk. In this case it’s the usage, not the spell, that’s the problem, though- just like with the invisible blockers method. I’d never jettison Invisibility just because invisible blockers are a thing. Instead I refrain from using invisible blockers. Likewise with PI.
My bad, I was all the time thinking of sorcerer for whom the PI-Wish just refreshes all the spells without any drawback (hence the reason I restricted it). For the normal mage I totally agree with you and I would probably not do it as it wouldn't be worth those extra spell slots.
 

Sucellus

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Messages
4
Hi all,

I've been playing the Baldur's Gate series since BG1 released when I was 12 years old, having whetted my appetite for RPGs on Pokémon Blue (Bulbasaur starter, of course) and Final Fantasy.

I've tried a few no-reload full party runs over the years on vanilla — even making it to ToB — but no cigar. I tend to lean towards divine casters, since these feel very underappreciated (my instinct in most games is to gravitate towards the less popular builds/classes/characters). Moreover, in RPGs I enjoy the "class fantasy" of defence & nullification, as opposed to blasting.

But if I'm honest with myself, I think that my previous failed runs were caused by a lack of full understanding of the mechanics of the arcane spell system. I'm also slightly burnt out on divine casters. So, with this in mind, I wanted to try a sorcerer trilogy run. With Charname being an arcane caster, it will also force me to learn the spell system a little better, instead of superficially (and badly) using Imoen/Nalia/Aerie in secondary roles. After I complete a no-reload vanilla run, I want to then try SCS as the next challenge.

Would it be OK to ask here about Sorcerer spell picks for a no-reload run? I know the Internet has 20+ years of BG sorcerer spell threads peppered around the place, but most of these seem either outdated, or else geared towards a very reload-happy, nuke-focussed, high-damage approach.

I'm in the planning stages (not 100% set on a sorcerer), still mulling over options in my head, but I may document the run in the main thread if I feel brave enough.

Many thanks.
 

Alesia_BH

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Messages
912
Greetings, fellow wayfarer! It’s always a pleasure to welcome new people to the forum, especially no reloaders.

This is a perfect place to ask about sorcerer spells, and I’d be happy to assist. I’m sure there are others who would be too. Borco and Finarfin have both run sorcerers recently. It’s been more than a few years since I’ve run one, but I still have a solid grasp of the mechanics. My last solo sorcerer, Alicia, completed the SCS-Ascension battle on insane, albeit with reloads. My last party sorcerer, April, no reloaded SCS-Ascension on insane up to Melissan, only falling due to a now patched spawn bug related to the mariliths.

One question, though, before I share: Will you be playing with the SCS component that makes sequencer, triggers and contingencies instead abilities? That makes a pretty big difference.

Once again, welcome!

Cheers,

A.
 

Borco

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381
Hey there, hi there, Sucellus!

Please allow me to extend a warm welcome from my end as well.

First of all, I fully share your appreciation of the divine casters in the BG setting. And it's certainly not only me, so in case you're wondering, you've definitely come to a place where they're not shunned.

As for your question, I understand that you're planning to go with a vanilla install first. It's been a very long time since I played sans SCS, but overall I'd say that it should allow you to approach your game with a slightly more "offensive" mindset, even in a no-reload context. SCS, on the other hand, generally incentivizes one to prioritize defense. A good example might be the aggressive use of Remove Magic/dispel by SCS casters, which is not something you would often encounter in a classic install if my recollection is correct - consequently, the importance of your ability to protect your buffs via Spell Immunity is significantly increased and SCS players will tend to prioritize that spell over other level 5 spell picks. But that's just an example.

To be better able to offer some views, which myself and others will certainly be more than happy to do, it would be helpful to understand whether you:
  1. Intend to play solo vs with a party; and
  2. Aim for a balanced build that would, ceteris paribus, increase the most your chances of a successful trilogy no-reload or for something more oriented towards a particular caster style (damage, summoner, disabler, support, etc.), whereby you would be prepared to sacrifice certain capabilities for the sake of more dedicated "specialization". Based on your description it seems that you're leaning towards the former, but I just wanted to confirm.
Anyway, it's great to have you here.

Regards,

B.
 

Sucellus

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Messages
4
Greetings, fellow wayfarer! It’s always a pleasure to welcome new people to the forum, especially no reloaders.

This is a perfect place to ask about sorcerer spells, and I’d be happy to assist. I’m sure there are others who would be too. Borco and Finarfin have both run sorcerers recently. It’s been more than a few years since I’ve run one, but I still have a solid grasp of the mechanics. My last solo sorcerer, Alicia, completed the SCS-Ascension battle on insane, albeit with reloads. My last party sorcerer, April, no reloaded SCS-Ascension on insane up to Melissan, only falling due to a now patched spawn bug related to the mariliths.

One question, though, before I share: Will you be playing with the SCS component that makes sequencer, triggers and contingencies instead abilities? That makes a pretty big difference.

Once again, welcome!

Cheers,

A.

Thanks for the welcome! No-reload is the only way I enjoy the game these days.

This is probably boring and quite pedestrian for you guys, but I wanted to try a vanilla unmodded run first. I haven't yet got one under my belt, and I'm leaning towards accomplishing this before embarking on an SCS run.

My previous runs tended to end when my buffed-to-the-nines party were dispelled and subsequently petrified (Twisted Rune), immolated (Firkraag) or charmed (Alu Fiends in Watchers' Keep). These fights tend to be a sharp difficulty spike for me, and I find that I quickly lose control of the battle and panic.

With the sorcerer, I'm wondering about the core chassis of spells needed to protect against the nastier spell effects. I'm not entirely sure how a sorcerer can protect against things like Chaos, for instance, without access to Chaotic Commands (stacking saves with Blur/Imp. Invis/Spirit Armor, perhaps? Or is Spell Immunity: Enchantment the only guaranteed protection? Or even just a quick glug of a Potion of Clarity?). Anomen/Aerie/Jaheira could cover the party - sure - but I've had multiple party members chunked before and so I want a degree of self-sufficiency.

I've noticed that the curated spell lists available online tend to omit any kind of magical protection until very late in the day, instead relying on Spell Trap from the Staff of the Magi, or level 7-9 protection spells... which seems extremely risky in a no-reload situation
 

Alesia_BH

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Messages
912
As for your question, I understand that you're planning to go with a vanilla install first. It's been a very long time since I played sans SCS, but overall I'd say that it should allow you to approach your game with a slightly more "offensive" mindset, even in a no-reload context. SCS, on the other hand, generally incentivizes one to prioritize defense.
If his ultimate goal is to no reload SCS, I think the smart move would be to start with a book tailored for SCS and learn the contours of it in vanilla. An SCS book will work in vanilla and it does take time I optimize your use of any book.
 

Sucellus

Habitué
Messages
4
Hey there, hi there, Sucellus!

Please allow me to extend a warm welcome from my end as well.

First of all, I fully share your appreciation of the divine casters in the BG setting. And it's certainly not only me, so in case you're wondering, you've definitely come to a place where they're not shunned.

As for your question, I understand that you're planning to go with a vanilla install first. It's been a very long time since I played sans SCS, but overall I'd say that it should allow you to approach your game with a slightly more "offensive" mindset, even in a no-reload context. SCS, on the other hand, generally incentivizes one to prioritize defense. A good example might be the aggressive use of Remove Magic/dispel by SCS casters, which is not something you would often encounter in a classic install if my recollection is correct - consequently, the importance of your ability to protect your buffs via Spell Immunity is significantly increased and SCS players will tend to prioritize that spell over other level 5 spell picks. But that's just an example.

To be better able to offer some views, which myself and others will certainly be more than happy to do, it would be helpful to understand whether you:
  1. Intend to play solo vs with a party; and
  2. Aim for a balanced build that would, ceteris paribus, increase the most your chances of a successful trilogy no-reload or for something more oriented towards a particular caster style (damage, summoner, disabler, support, etc.), whereby you would be prepared to sacrifice certain capabilities for the sake of more dedicated "specialization". Based on your description it seems that you're leaning towards the former, but I just wanted to confirm.
Anyway, it's great to have you here.

Regards,

B.

Thank you! Yes, I think I'll try vanilla first. It just seems more "proper" to get a no-reload done & dusted on the original game before diving into SCS!

I think you're right that the use of Dispel/Remove Magic (and other debuffing removal magic) is much more sparse in the vanilla, but when it has cropped up, it's usually been my undoing.

To answer your Qs:

1. Party for sure. But my companions, like my houseplants, have a very short shelf-life and I seem to struggle keeping them alive. Many will probably get chunked along the way. So I don't want to completely rely on a party member for an essential protective element, if that makes sense?
2. Oh, interesting question. I suppose a balanced build? But I do lean more towards debuff/controller/defensive spells (if only I could use them well!)
 

Alesia_BH

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Messages
912
I've noticed that the curated spell lists available online tend to omit any kind of magical protection until very late in the day, instead relying on Spell Trap from the Staff of the Magi, or level 7-9 protection spells... which seems extremely risky in a no-reload situation
I do the exact opposite. I take a minimalist approach on the offensive end, and load up on Abjuration school spells.

The core of my defense is to use illusionary protections to get my saves in the safe zone, lock those in with SI:A + SI: D, and protect SI:A and SI: D with Spell Shield and the 6+ method. I also use specific protections to defend against AoE spells and Teleport Field to frustrate enemy melee attack resolution. I’ll unpack all this when I get the chance.
 

Enuhal

Habitué
Messages
137
Hey, welcome! I'm not too well versed in SCS solo play, unlike Alesia or Borco, but when it comes to vanilla party-based play (and SCS party play, to a lesser degree) I have a lot of no-reloading experience.

I think you're right that the use of Dispel/Remove Magic (and other debuffing removal magic) is much more sparse in the vanilla, but when it has cropped up, it's usually been my undoing.

Yeah - that, aside from all the pre-buffs, is one of the biggest differences for me between playing vanilla and SCS. Once you know which buffs you generally need to get the relevant immunities, physical/magical protections and combat strength, the main survival mechanic in the later parts of the game in party-based vanilla gameplay mostly comes down to not getting dispelled. Luckily, in vanilla, as you noted, only a tiny amount of enemies will actually try to actively dispel you - most notably all dragons (with the follow-up of dragon fear and/or their breath weapon being a serious source for concern), a few liches (not even all of them - though Deirex is a notable one who will try, for example), a small amount of very high level spellcasters and some special enemies such as the Fallen Solar, Mel or Behilfet, if you play with SoD (SoD has much, much better magic scripts on higher difficulty levels, so dispels are more common in general - on insane without extra damage, it should be treated a lot like SCS in that regard).
Ideally, for these battles Spell Immunity: Abjuration is the obvious choice for arcane spellcasters, though it doesn't last forever and should be carefully tracked - almost all of these enemies will only cast remove magic once, and they will do so very early on (pretty much at the start of the fight, usually), but a dragon like Draconis will only use it upon transformation, so if you pre-buff SI:A it has to still be going when he changes forms (I usually only cast it shortly before the transformation is going to happen). However, in party-based play, of course, not everyone will have SI:A. Here are some ways around that:
a) Spreading out when you know that dispels could happen - they should ideally only ever be able to hit one party member (a lot faster to rebuff with the essentials or just move away)
b) The most reliable way, though this will not work at all for SCS: These vanilla remove magic scripts, often part of some kind of sequencer, are always targeted towards the closest creature hostile to the dragon/other enemy. It is very easy to initially stay far away from of melee combat with any given dragon or other foe that dispels and only have either a party member with SI:A in melee combat (with the neccessary physical protections added, of course) or just use a summon - a Mordenkainen's Sword is ideal for the job. If you know this enemy will eventually use remove magic, just wait until the spell is used up - in vanilla, they generally won't try for a second time, so once the dispel is wasted, you can freely move in (and you can deal some damage with ranged weapons and cast some spells in the meantime). This is how I currently do my vanilla runs in regards to all dragon battles and other foes I expect to try and dispel me.
c) Keep a few joker items that can get you out of trouble if you do end up getting dispelled. There's item-based immunities - very important. I recommend keeping every item that provides one (or relevant elemenal resistances), as they can be equipped instantly in combat, and dispels will change nothing about that. One important thing I try to always keep is at least one item that provides charm immunity for every party member (granted, for a sorcerer, there aren't many options aside from the Staff of the Magi, but most classes get a few possible tools here) - this is also pretty crucial for the WK level 3 no-magic-zone into succubus room situation you mentioned. The most powerful thing to have is stuff like potions of magic shielding, which will guarantee making all saving throws for a short while - super powerful, quite rare, but great for a situation when you failed to keep your buffs against a powerful enemy. It will give you the time to get your protections back up. Less powerful stuff like resistance potions, invulnerability potions etc. are, of course, quite good as well.

As for sorcerer spell lists, I can give you one if you wish, though I change things up depending on my party composition - if the sorcerer is my only arcane spellcaster things will look a bit different compared to when I have two or three, but I can give a rundown of my favorite spells to take in party-based no-reload play, if that seems useful :)
 

Borco

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381
To answer your Qs:

1. Party for sure. But my companions, like my houseplants, have a very short shelf-life and I seem to struggle keeping them alive. Many will probably get chunked along the way. So I don't want to completely rely on a party member for an essential protective element, if that makes sense?
2. Oh, interesting question. I suppose a balanced build? But I do lean more towards debuff/controller/defensive spells (if only I could use them well!)

Got it, thanks!

The majority of my hands-on experience with crafting a book comes from playing solo. That's one of the reasons why I'm not best positioned to opine on the topic in a party composition. The other reason is that I've never completed a no-reload, neither solo nor with a party, neither in vanilla nor with SCS. But I'll try to provide my views nevertheless.

In theory, I see two main differences between solo vs. party play which could affect the way one approaches the book-building process:

a) Slower level progression: With a solo character, you'll be less concerned about having to wait a few levels for a particular spell pick to come, whereas with a party you'll want to maximize the impact of a given spell at the time it becomes available. Another side effect of slower level progression will be shorter spell durations, which may especially be felt when trying to run parallel 1 round/level abjuration protections at lower levels .

b) Outsourcing: The flip side of travelling with side kicks is that they can share some of the load, either in terms of specific protections (you've already mentioned a good example of Chaotic Commands), exposure to physical attacks, or offense.

Taking into account the above and your slight preference for a control/buffer role of your sorcerer (while maintaining the overal balance of the build), this is how I personally would approach my book. At least directionally, with a huge caveat that my actual experience with the late Throne of Bhaal content is totally outdated and virtually non-existent.

Unless stated otherwise, the choices are primarily driven by SCS. For sake of simplicity, I've also ignored the fifth picks at L3-L7s, given that these typically only come very late in the game, although especially with a smaller party it can certainly be an additional resource to tap into. Numbers is brackets indicate the sequence of the picks. I've also divided the spells as follows:

C = Core picks: Spells I'd want to have most of the time.
S = Style picks: Spells designed to promote the selected role.
H = Honorable mentions: I'd be willing to consider picking these instead of other spells under certain circumstances.
O = Notable omissions: Spells that would otherwise qualify as C or H, but for some reason are obsoleted (in most cases due to outsourcing within the party).

---

L1:
C: Shield (1), Magic Missile (3), Chromatic Orb (4)
S: Blindness (2), Charm Person/Friends/Anything goes (5)
H: N/A
O: ProEvil [outsourcing]

L2:
C: Mirror Image (2), Invisibility (3), Blur (4), Melf's Acid Arrow (5)
S: Web (1)
H: N/A
O: Resist Fear* [outsourcing]

*Party-wide fear immunity is certainly a critical defensive instrument. While I appreciate that you might not want to outsource such critical capabilities to a party member, in this particular case there should be plenty of other divine or arcane casters to fulfil the role.

L3:
C: Fireball* (1), ProFire* (2), Spell Thrust (3)
S: Slow (4)
H: Skull Trap
O: Remove Magic [slow level progression], Haste [outsourcing]

*Given the prevalence of fire damage in the game, often in the AoE form, it'd like to have as broad access to fire resistance for my party as possible. Its long duration combined with the fact that eventually it can be handed around by your Project Image gives it a decent cost-benefit ratio. Consequently, I'd take Fireball instead of Skull Trap to take advantage of the fire resist synergies during the mid parts of the trilogy. In the long run, Skull Trap probably makes more sense, it being of a less commonly resisted damage type and slightly higher damage. Edit: I realized that Skull Trap has a much higher damage cap in vanilla compared to 12d6 with SCS (vs. 10d6 Fireball), so that's potentially another consideration.

L4:
C: Improved Invisibility (1), Stoneskin (2)
S: Greater Malison (3), Teleport Field (4)
H: Spirit Armor
O: Fire Shields [less relevant in a party context]

L5:
C: Spell Immunity* (1), Spell Shield** (2), Sunfire (3),
S: Chaos/Feeblemind*** (4)
H: Cone of Cold
O: Breach [outsourcing]

*Spell Immunity could have lower priority in vanilla, depending on how often the enemies will try removing your other buffs with Remove Magic and/or divination magic, but I'd still want it quite early on for SI: Enchantment.

**Similarly, Spell Shield would be high priority in SCS since enemies tend to be very aggressive with their magic attacks, although I'm not sure the same would apply to vanilla.

***I'd totally want to experiment with Feeblemind in case I would already have access to sorcerer Malison + Doom from a party member.


L6:
C: Pierce Magic* (1), PfMW (2), Spell Deflection** (3)
S: ProMagic Energy*** (4)
H: Death Spell, Contingency
O: Improved Haste [outsourcing], True Sight [outsourcing]

*Pierce Magic could be swapped for Lower Resist at L5, but I wouldn't want to fully outsource the MR-reduction capabilities to the party. The main reason for taking it at L6 here is the bottleneck at L5 with its too many all-round useful spells.

**The inclusion of Spell Deflection mainly assumes the you'll be battling enemies that can see invisible creatures (and therefore are able bypass Improved Invisibility for single target spells) before acquiring Spell Trap. These enemies are not uncommon in SCS, however I don't recall what's the vanilla take on this (maybe it's just few selected final bosses).

***While it may be eventually become obsolete for the Charname due to Protection from Energy + Belt of Inertial Barrier, the long duration makes it an attractive option for party-wide buff (alongside ProFire), noting that with Project Image it will eventually only take like one L7 spell to get everyone fire + magic damage resistances to 100%.


L7:
C: Ruby Ray (1), Project Image (2), Limited Wish (3), Spell Sequencer (4)
S: N/A
H: Mordy Sword
O: Mass Invisibility [outsourcing]

L8:
C: Spell Trigger (1), ADHW (2), Protection from Energy (3)
S: PW: Blind (4)
H: N/A
O: N/A

L9:
C: Spell Trap (1), Chain Contingency (2), Imprisonment (4)
S: Wish (3)
H: PW: Kill
O: N/A

---

Ultimately, I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect book. And if there is, then it's certainly not this one, lol. The best thing about this whole process is that there's just some much flexibility that one may keep exploring different approaches with every new character, which in turn allows the game to still feel fresh even after all these years.

Lastly, if there is one actual recommendation that I would be prepared to give, it's that you should go with whatever will make your game enjoyable. That matters more than any strategic choice you make, because you're never closer to failure in a no-reload as when you start loosing interest and, consequently, your focus.

Regards,

B.
 
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Finarfin

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Messages
122
Hi all,

I've been playing the Baldur's Gate series since BG1 released when I was 12 years old, having whetted my appetite for RPGs on Pokémon Blue (Bulbasaur starter, of course) and Final Fantasy.

I've tried a few no-reload full party runs over the years on vanilla — even making it to ToB — but no cigar. I tend to lean towards divine casters, since these feel very underappreciated (my instinct in most games is to gravitate towards the less popular builds/classes/characters). Moreover, in RPGs I enjoy the "class fantasy" of defence & nullification, as opposed to blasting.

But if I'm honest with myself, I think that my previous failed runs were caused by a lack of full understanding of the mechanics of the arcane spell system. I'm also slightly burnt out on divine casters. So, with this in mind, I wanted to try a sorcerer trilogy run. With Charname being an arcane caster, it will also force me to learn the spell system a little better, instead of superficially (and badly) using Imoen/Nalia/Aerie in secondary roles. After I complete a no-reload vanilla run, I want to then try SCS as the next challenge.

Would it be OK to ask here about Sorcerer spell picks for a no-reload run? I know the Internet has 20+ years of BG sorcerer spell threads peppered around the place, but most of these seem either outdated, or else geared towards a very reload-happy, nuke-focussed, high-damage approach.

I'm in the planning stages (not 100% set on a sorcerer), still mulling over options in my head, but I may document the run in the main thread if I feel brave enough.

Many thanks.
Hi Sucellus and welcome!

I totally feel what you are writing there, I felt exactly like that before I started my no-reload solo Sorcerer run. I've played BG2 for over 20 years, but in one solo no reload run (ended up low reload) I learned more about arcane spell system than I learned in 20 years. I finally understood how it works as there is 0 room for error.

Even though compared to @Borco and @Alesia_BH I only have very little experience with no reload runs (I only did 8), I managed to make it with one char to Sendai and my Sorc reloaded twice (both were not normal deaths). I will try to throw my 2 cents here:

I think Sorcerer is a great no-reload char, but to be honest I don't think I would have tried it with a party. Main reason is that it requires a LOT of micro management compared to most other chars I tried. And with a party, no matter how concentrated you are on a main char, you will have to divide the concentration on other party members and that could prove dangerous. If I was doing a party run to just succeed, I would probably try barbarian or berserker as rage along with lots of HP would make you a great tank. Not to mention I don't think I would have understood the mechanics as well as I do now if I was playing with a party (again because I would have to share concentration on the whole party). I also love talking to NPCs and read all their reactions and I think that would take my concentration from fighting as well.

I see that Borco already wrote down and explained the list. Mine was a bit different. Both because I played Dragon Disciple (who has better AC, fewer spells and natural fire resistance) and I went more summoner/defensive way. I preferred to stand buffed at a distance, while my summons are fighting and I counter any debuff/spell enemy is throwing. Thanks to Robe of Vecna I was always able to put Spell Shield or correct Spell Immunity. Going only few damage spells was fine up until final battles in ToB, but if you will have party it shouldn't be a problem. I had to reload in Ducal Palace because of having too defensive build actually - I did not know that if all dukes die, I auto die as well. I took this as a bug first and it was my first reload (found out later it's not a bug). But with wands and scrolls, even with defensive build it wasn't that hard when I changed my mindset to offense on the 2nd try. Just be careful and don't take too much time there, I leared the hard way :)

Here's my spell list:

L1: Blindness, Chromatic orb, Shield, Magic missile, Protection from evil
L2: Invisibility, Melf's acid arrow, Mirror Image, Blur, Resist Fear
L3: Skull trap, haste, flaming arrow, spell thrust, remove magic
L4: Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, Spirit Armor, Fireshield (blue), Otiluke's resilient sphere
L5: Animate Dead, spell shield, spell immunity, breach, lower resistance
L6: Contingency, protection from magical weapons, spell deflection, Globe of invulnerability, True sight
L7: Mordaiken's sword, spell sequencer, ruby ray of reversal, power word stun, project image
L8: Incendiary cloud, spell trigger, pierce shield, protection from energy
L9: Chain contingency, imprisonment, skull trap, wish

Not really sure how much it will help you as I would not recommend this list for a party play or a non kitted Sorcerer. Based on what you wrote about preferring balanced build - debuff/controll/support I think fewer damage spells could be fine. For me the most important spells beside Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, Spell Immunities, Spell Shields and the usual were Animate Dead and Mordaiken's Sword.

- Animate Dead could be cast by a cleric in your party, but I would suggest using Mordaiken's swords. They hit almost everything in game (being +4) and only few things can kill it.
- Incendiary cloud was my main damage spell, but with the amount of fire resistant creatures and you having a party, it would be much better to use Abi dalzim's horrid wilting.
- I also used Contingency-helpless -> Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Luckily I never got to test it, but it might be worth having a backup plan. I knew myself and I knew I am gonna make a mistake sooner or later.
- Imprisonment was a great spell as well, taking care of enemy Planetars and Demons (especially those mean Balors) with a single spell was a life saver quite a few times

One protip which was a game changer for me and I think might work even better in party - don't cast spells too aggressively against enemy spellcasters. I always waited until they cast something and I reacted. In case a finger of death, ADHW or something that could be game ending is flying on you, it's essential to be able to react with a proper spell.
 

Finarfin

Habitué
Messages
122
Lastly, if there is one actual recommendation that I would be prepared to give, it's that you should go with whatever will make your game enjoyable. That matters more than any strategic choice you make, because you're never closer to failure in a no-reload as when you start loosing interest and, consequently, your focus.
I think this is the most important no-reload tip. When I was reading about classes for no-reload, there were few mentions being talked about all the time. But one person wrote exactly this - no reload runs end usually because of concentration failure and that goes down if you play something that gets boring and you lose focus. So choose something that you enjoy and you think will enjoy all the way to the end of ToB
 

Enuhal

Habitué
Messages
137
Since everyone's giving their spell list, I'll add mine, based on your settings (full party play, no SCS) with a few notes regarding changes I'd make for SCS. Note that I change things up as I go and never stick to a pre-determined spell list, so this is just a hypothetical example of what I can see myself going for in a non-specified run with a fairly typical party with at least one other arcane spellcasters, 1-2 divine spellcasters and a bunch of fighter-types.

Level 1: Sleep, Protection from Petrification, Shield, Magic Missle, Blindness
Notes: This approach is based on going for an early visit to the basilisk area for a lot of starting experience. With SCS, I generally don't do that - I might skip sleep entirely and delay PfP until later. Shield is very important in SCS (where you might even want to open with Shield + Blindness) and should be taken very early on, but it's far less relevant in vanilla, though still very nice to have.

Level 2: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Blur, Resist Fear, Acid Arrow
Notes: With SCS or a weaker early game party composition, I will often pick Web first/second instead and skip either Resist Fear or Acid Arrow entirely. Depending on my party stats, I might also avoid one or two of the defensive spells to get Strength and/or Cat's Grace (if playing with IWD spells) in there - this depends on whether or not I have a lot of fighter-types in need of these buffs.

Level 3: Haste, Slow, Invisibility 10' Radius, Protection from Fire, Remove Magic
Notes: You might not need to double up on more invisibility spells, but I use them quite a bit, and, notably, there is no scroll for the AoE version in vanilla BG1 (until the start of SoD). If playing with SCS, I would try to get Spell Thrust in here, and usually very early on, so I might skip either Slow or Invisibility for it. Minute Meteors, Minor Spell Deflection, Flame Arrow and Dispel Magic are also worth considering, and I might take one of them depending on my party or playstyle in any given run.

Level 4: Stoneskin, Greater Malison, Minor Sequencer, Spirit Armor, Improved Invisibility
Notes: When playing with SCS, Secret Word is a priority, and I would take it after Stoneskin right away. If playing the full SCS installation with IWD spells, I also want to get Emotions: Hope and Courage, making this a very crowded spell level - though I can skip Minor Sequencer in that case, making more of a spellbook with Stoneskin, Secret Word, Emotion: Hope, Emotion: Courage and Spirit Armor.

Level 5: Breach, Chaos, Spell Immunity, Animate Dead, Spell Shield
Notes: In vanilla, Breach (in addition to True Sight/Detect Illusions) is the only spell you need to beat any enemy spellcasters (unless they are liches, who are immune to level 5 spells and kind of force you to wait out their PFMW), since Breach goes straight through spell protections (only Spell Shield blocks it, but it's very rarely used and also consumed by it, so in that case, you can just breach twice), making it incredibly powerful and allowing your physical damage dealers to quickly land a killing blow. In SCS, you need to remove all of these spell protections if breaching your foe is the eventual plan. However, with SCS, Spell Immunity and Spell Shield become way more important and should be prioritized, as they are among the two most crucial spells for survival. Chaos, in that case, can be skipped, and Breach / Animate Dead delayed - eventually, you could add Lower Resistance instead of Chaos, as it loses a lot of its power in the later parts of the game.

Level 6: Improved Haste, Death Spell, Contingency, Pierce Magic, Spell Deflection
Notes: The choices depend a lot on what your other party members can do. If no one in your party provides True Sight or 100% Detect Illusions, I would definitely pick it up, and early on as well. With SCS, Protection from Magical Energy and Spell Deflection are now a lot more important and should be included. In that case, I would skip Death Spell and Contingency will be skipped anyway with the right SCS options. I personally don't make much use of Protection from Magical Weapons, but a lot of people would propably include it. BTW, Pierce Magic, while not needed for breaching, is still here in the vanilla game, specifically to put it into a Spell Trigger, where it takes the place that would otherwise be taken up for Lower Resistance. I mostly use it for some specific endgame battles, such as the Ravager or Mel, so I can hit them through their magic resistance with 3*Abi-Dalzim Chain Contingencies.

Level 7: Mordenkainen's Sword, Mass Invisibility, Spell Sequencer, Delayed Blast Fireball, Limited Wish
Notes: With SCS, Ruby Ray is now a priority and should be taken first or second for the ability to counter Spell Traps. Spell Sequencer will no longer be needed. Sometimes I even pick up Warding Whip.

Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Spell Trigger, Incendiary Cloud, Power Word: Blind, Protection from Energy
Notes: Once again, with SCS, things change quite a bit - Pierce Shield is now a more notable option, Spell Trigger falls away, and Horrid Wilting should propably be changed to Telekinetic Storm with a full installation, or Telekinetic Storm should at least be added in later on.

Level 9: Chain Contingency, Time Stop, Wish, Spell Trap, Spellstrike
Notes: SCS removes Chain Contingency from the list - here, I would also take Spellstrike first and Spell Trap possibly second.

As you can see, this is a list mostly focused on supporting the party, with not a lot of AoE spell damage until very late into the game. This is based on my experience that a) in BG1, wands and necklace of missle/potion charges are superior to trying to cast AoE damage spell from your spellbook, and b) fighters are your bread and butter damage dealers in party-based settings anyway, and improving their power and ability to get through with their weapon attacks (while staying alive) is the most useful role an arcane spellcaster can play in a well-balanced party on a day to day basis. Obviously, when planning for solo play, things would have to look entirely different.

Edit: There are quite a few differences between lists given by several players here, but I think a good rule of thumb is: If a spell appears on every single list, it's propably really, really good. I'm also happy to answer any questions regarding my spell choices (and skips).
 
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Borco

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¡Hola!

In case you'd be willing to brainstorm on the topic of Kangaax the Demilich, then I've been trying to think about the possible avenues for offense when you're a solo enchanter with no access to Mordy Swords. And so far, I've been unable to come up with a solid plan.

Energy Blades sound good, however my latest attempt with a high level priest ended in a protracted iMoD assault, when even several batches of EBs were not enough to bring him below badly injured. With only five L9 slots to go with, I'm fairly sceptical about this approach with a mage. I'll also note that my Simulacrums are not yet able to cast their own L9 spells and therefore join the assault.

Shapechange has several forms with +4 weapons, but all of them are stuck at 1 APR (2 when hasted), so that hardly seems like a viable option to overcome his regeneration. I expect that attacking with Staff of Rhynn or Everard would be similarly futile.

@Finarfin came up with an interesting idea regarding the Ring of Ram. Since SCS PIs and Simmys can still use the items' charge abilities, it might be possible to repeatedly deploy by removing the clones with a dispel / Planetar after each use to make space for a fresh batch. The reason I'm struggling with this approach is that it's a borderline - if not outright - exploit, and that it may still be tricky to execute this properly.

Apart from the above, I currently don't see any other option, but I was wondering whether I'm not missing something obvious. Eventually, I'm prepared to bite the bullet and leave the lich at rest until another more bolder adventurer comes by.

Cheers,

B
 
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Alesia_BH

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This is a situation where your SCS HLA mechanic setting makes a huge difference. If you play with HLAs as spells, you’ll have plenty of HLA spells to finish him. If not, maybe not.

I’ve never faced Kangaxx with a mage sans HLAs as spells. Accordingly, I can’t speak from personal experience. All I can do is float untested ideas.

In addition to the Ring of the Ram, you have The Victor as an option, at least with respect to level immunity bypass. Recharged, The Victor does have sufficient uses to become relevant, even though the damage is mild. I could imagine draining his book, wearing him down with Everard and The Victor, and then finishing him with HLA spells. For style points, I’d consider a Tensered slayer, being sure to test the behavior in my install first
 
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jmerry

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The SCS setting that really matters is "spellcasting demiliches". If you pick that one, it changes the entire character of the fight - allow the demilich to cast spells, but also remove its immunity to high-level spells. So then you take down his energy protections and blast him.

Without that setting, it's very much a puzzle boss. And the only mage HLA spell that can help you directly is Energy Blades. A planetar can't hit with its +3 weapon and can't affect the demilich with its spells. Dragon's Breath and Comet hit as level 9 spells, so he's immune to those. Maybe Improved Alacrity, but what other spells are you casting?
 

Alesia_BH

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The SCS setting that really matters is "spellcasting demiliches".
We all use spellcasting demiliches. That's a given.

The HLA setting distinguishes my setup from others, which is why I mentioned it.

Against the spell casting version, a non-HLA energy attack approach would require taking down both his specific protections and his MR. With the exception of Breach he’s immune to spell levels 1-5. Accordingly, he’s vulnerable to the pierces but not LR. Naturally, your damage spells would need to be drawn from the higher levels too. I’ve never executed that strategy because my settings have always granted me enough HLAs (DBs) to evade his MR. It’s viable though.

(The approach I mentioned was the one I was considering for my transmuter, Alastria. It’s viable against either version.)
 
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jmerry

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Demiliches don't have MR. Well, Kangaxx has the 10% from his ring, but that's all. You don't need a resistance-lowering effect, you just need to dispel the specific protections. And maybe break the spell protections, if you're trying something single-target.

Also, the demilich immunity item grants immunity to a bunch of specific spells, in addition to the immunity based on spell level. Basically, anything indiscriminate with an AoE that could include the caster. And SCS doesn't touch these specific immunities. So Horrid Wilting (party-friendly) or Prismatic Spray (cone) works or Finger of Death, but Incendiary Cloud or Fire Storm doesn't.
Energy types that can work: fire, acid, magic. Cold and electric damage doesn't; demiliches are immune to those types, just like ordinary liches.

Now, energy blades? Sure, they can hit. But 1d4+5 slashing and 1d10 electric damage becomes 1 damage after demilich resistances. You need way too many hits for that plan to be effective.

The mage spells from the vanilla spell list including HLAs that can directly deal non-resisted damage:
- Finger of Death (Necromancy, 2d8+1 magic damage)
- Prismatic Spray (Conjuration, chances of 20/40/80 magic damage, save for half)
- Horrid Wilting (Necromancy, up to 20d8 magic damage, save for half)
- Dragon's Breath (20d10 fire damage, save for half)
- Comet (10d10 fire damage)

One issue to note: there are some reports over on G3 of v35 spellcasting demiliches getting way too many hit points - more than 180, instead of the exactly 50 they should have. This seems to be due to a library bug. If you run into this (and have a tool such as Near Infinity), go ahead and set the hit points on the HLDEMI and DEMILICH cre files back down to 50.
 
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