The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for Candlekeep Annex Participants- Newbie or Veteran

[Finarfin]

Hey there, hi there!

I'd love to give you advice on the SCS Sendai fight, but the truth is that I don't have much experience with it. Our installs are pretty different. I run with Ascension as my primary endgame difficulty mod. I use SCS too, but I skip two of the SCS ToB comments, Improved Sendai and Improved Abazigal. In my install the adventure is pretty straightforward, barring mistakes, until the Throne and, to a lesser extent, Abazigal.

I refrain from installing the SCS Improved Abazgial & Sendai Enclaves for two distinct reasons. SCS's Abazigal lair improvements feel a little clumsy to me. I also find them unnecessary since Ascension does enough to improve the Abazigal fight. As for the Sendai improvements, I enjoy what SCS did with the final fight, but I was concerned with the effect it might have on my character selection. It's straight forward enough with some builds, but dicey with others. I was concerned that installing it would canalize my character selection. I only play occasionally these days, and I don't love the idea of introducing another difficulty spike later on. If I were running with the Sendai enclave component installed, I'd probably just navigate around the problem with character selection. As my comment implies, I do have enough experience with the fight to identify with the challenge you're facing. You can easily find yourself overwhelmed if your damage output is insufficient.

I've been considering starting a run semi-soon. I'm tempted to install all the enclaves this time, just to re-familiarize myself with them. If I do, I'll share some thoughts.

In any case, excellent work in the thread! It's wonderful to have you here.

Cheers,

A.

Thanks for the answer.

I played Ascension only once around 10 years ago and I don't really remember much about it, but might give it a try on my next party playthrough. I played it around the same time as Tactics (or both at the same time?) and remember it being ridiculously difficult (might have been the Tactics part)

I saw you started new swashbuckler Ava with SCS installed. Did you include Sendai and Abazigal parts as well? If so, I am really looking forward to you reaching that part and following the fight

I decided that on fighters from now on, I will allow them to use Vhalior's Helm for ToB (either after Gromnir with 'move OP items' installed or after Irenicus hell battle). My next char will be unkitted fighter and I might try Blackrazor for that and for final fight (if he ever gets there ofc)

 

[Cahir]

I played Ascension only once around 10 years ago and I don't really remember much about it, but might give it a try on my next party playthrough. I played it around the same time as Tactics (or both at the same time?) and remember it being ridiculously difficult (might have been the Tactics part)

You could also try Tactics Remix. It's a revised and upgraded version made by morpheus562 (with permission from original author, Wesley Weimar). It has vastly upgraded scripting, added BG1 and SoD content and an ingame difficulty slider that allows to adjust difficulty to your liking. It's recommended as an alternative to SCS.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Thanks for the answer.

Sorry I couldn't ne more helpful. I'm not sure if any of my trilogy no reload successes included the Sendai and Abazigal Improved enclaves. Maybe Arkona?

I saw you started new swashbuckler Ava with SCS installed. Did you include Sendai and Abazigal parts as well? If so, I am really looking forward to you reaching that part and following the fight

I'm not sure I'll make it to ToB, tbh. As mentioned earlier, I'm basically in a holding pattern right now, awaiting packages. I'm not sure how long that will take, but once I receive my last one I'll be off to Peru where I won't play much.

I'd say I probably have a week to play, two weeks at the outside. I could make ToB in that time frame if I pushed for it, but right now I'm inclined to play casually, a little bit each day, as opposed to all day sessions and the like. We'll see. I may catch the BG bug again, or I may just keep it on the DL. No way of knowing right now.

 

[Borco]

Sorry I couldn't ne more helpful. I'm not sure if any of my trilogy no reload successes included the Sendai and Abazigal Improved enclaves. Maybe Arkona?

Not that I'd know better than you, but since I've been reading through Arkona's run recently I can confirm that it did include both. Here's the link to Serg's backup in case anyone'd be interested in some halfling punk action:

Baldur's Gate 2 No-Reload Challenge - Page 563 - Baldur's Gate I & II

Page 563 of 610 - Baldur's Gate 2 No-Reload Challenge - posted in Baldurs Gate I & II: Arkona, Halfling Barabrian: Anadramatis I had composed a semi-long post critiquing Anadramatis and his presence in SCS. But then it occurred to me that Anadramatis may have been a labor of love, a cherished...

blackstrider.net

 

[Alesia_BH]

Not that I'd know better than you

Well, you knew the answer and I didn't, so you objectively knew better than I, lol.

(I was betting on that, tbh. I was aware that you had read Arkona's run recently and have a good memory, so I figured you'd know. I also figured that mentioning it with a question mark would spare me the trouble of looking it up. Thanks for the assist!)

(And that page links to Dyara's run too. Awesome! That's one worth saving.)

 

[Alesia_BH]

Thanks for the answer.

If you're still interested in Improved Enclave Sendai tips, Finarfin, check the link Borco shared. The Sendai post is at the bottom of the page. That's the best I can offer. I was more familiar with the fight back then. I was also a better player than I am now.

 

[Finarfin]

You could also try Tactics Remix. It's a revised and upgraded version made by morpheus562 (with permission from original author, Wesley Weimar). It has vastly upgraded scripting, added BG1 and SoD content and an ingame difficulty slider that allows to adjust difficulty to your liking. It's recommended as an alternative to SCS.

Thanks for the tip, I actually read about it the other day and that it's compatible with EE. Based on what I read I might give it a try one day, but definitely not a no reload run.

Can't say I was a big fan of original Tactics. I think it was a bit ridiculous in some parts. I only remember Ilyich and final hell fight and I did not enjoy it that much. I think SCS increased difficulty in a much better way.

 

[Finarfin]

If you're still interested in Improved Enclave Sendai tips, Finarfin, check the link Borco shared. The Sendai post is at the bottom of the page. That's the best I can offer. I was more familiar with the fight back then. I was also a better player than I am now.

Thanks, I checked it out. It looks so easy on those few pictures, just like a walk in a park haha

I will definitely get some inspiration from it, my next char will probably be an unkitted fighter and might need some help before that fight (if he ever gets there). Maybe I'll try to get Ravager as I have seen some youtube video of a guy who used it there as well. Though that requires to finish Watcher's keep to get it upgraded I think, and that is no joke.

Btw what is general consensus about OP items like Robe of Vecna, Vhailor's Helm or Cloak of Mirroring? I haven't used Cloak of Mirroring or Vhailor's helm on any of my runs, but allowed myself to use Robe of Vecna. And to be honest, that helm might have saved the run for me in that battle with Sendai when I played Cavalier

 

[Alesia_BH]

Thanks, I checked it out. It looks so easy on those few pictures, just like a walk in a park haha

It was pretty straightforward for Arkona. As I recall, the key was to use invisibility charges to keep the enemies in their respective zones. The warrior and thief statues were dispatched ASAP. The arcane statues were taken care of at leisure and, importantly, separately. Also, when fighting the statues, Arkona stayed away from the stairs, so as to avoid drawing the support drow into the fray. With that approach, and warrior HLAs, the fight is very manageable. Note well, though, that was an older version of SCS. A change as simple as an adjustment to the call for help ranges would necessitate a different strategy. I can't comment on how the current version plays.

I will definitely get some inspiration from it, my next char will probably be an unkitted fighter and might need some help before that fight (if he ever gets there). Maybe I'll try to get Ravager as I have seen some youtube video of a guy who used it there as well. Though that requires to finish Watcher's keep to get it upgraded I think, and that is no joke.

Watcher's Keep can get dicey- especially the demon level. Arkona arguably had it easier there, since she was using the ATweaks fiends rather than the SCS ones. The ATweaks fiends had a reputation for being difficult at the time, due to an abundance of unfamiliar abilities, but they were squishier and, in the end, easier on a halfling barbarian like Arkona.

Btw what is general consensus about OP items like Robe of Vecna, Vhailor's Helm or Cloak of Mirroring? I haven't used Cloak of Mirroring or Vhailor's helm on any of my runs, but allowed myself to use Robe of Vecna. And to be honest, that helm might have saved the run for me in that battle with Sendai when I played Cavalier

The consensus is that Mirroring is busted and more or less unusable, while Vecna and Vhailor are acceptable especially if they are moved into ToB, where they are reasonably balanced. Vecna and Vhailor have the merit of being fun, too, which makes up for whatever balancing flaws the may have. Mirroring, in contrast, just makes things dumber.

Sometime ago, in this thread, I ran a solo halfling Priest of Talos through SCS/Ascension on insane. I had restricted Mirroring throughout the run, but I slipped it into the Bag of Holding and reserved the right to use if need be. I ended up using it in an uber-cheesy endgame strategy, which entailed leveraging an anomaly in the Ascension 2.0 battlefield. I'm glad I took that approach, because it suited the personality of my ruthless Talossan but I also denied her a place in our Hall of Heroes on the grounds that her end game tactics were too cheesy. Subsequently I allowed my transmuter, Alastria, to use Mirroring in an in insane Ascension solo (with reloads). I have mixed feeling about that. Mirroing is ridiculous, and it takes some of the fun out of playing a transmuter. At the same time, soloing Ascension with a transmuter is non-trivial and it kind of makes sense to leverage a legal strategy available to you once you take on a challenge that's that extreme.

In the end, it is always -always- up to the individual player to decide what's within bounds or out of bounds. Context matters, and an item that would be egregiously OP in one run might be acceptable in another. With an unkitted fighter, my inclination would be allow Vhailor using the SCS component that moves it into ToB. Mirroring, in contrast, would be a pass for me.

 

[Finarfin]

It was pretty straightforward for Arkona. As I recall, the key was to use invisibility charges to keep the enemies in their respective zones. The warrior and thief statues were dispatched ASAP. The arcane statues were taken care of at leisure and, importantly, separately. Also, when fighting the statues, Arkona stayed away from the stairs, so as to avoid drawing the support drow into the fray. With that approach, and warrior HLAs, the fight is very manageable. Note well, though, that was an older version of SCS. A change as simple as an adjustment to the call for help ranges would necessitate a different strategy. I can't comment on how the current version plays.

I see. Atop of call for help from new SCS, those reinforcements also teleport in to the middle of arena now and those basic mage drows put protection from magic weapons which doesn't really make it any easier. Does Ava have improved Sendai?

Watcher's Keep can get dicey- especially the demon level. Arkona arguably had it easier there, since she was using the ATweaks fiends rather than the SCS ones. The ATweaks fiends had a reputation for being difficult at the time, due to an abundance of unfamiliar abilities, but they were squishier and, in the end, easier on a halfling barbarian like Arkona.

Totally agree, imho that 3rd level is the hardest part of the whole trilogy. With the chars I made if far on no reload, I did 2nd level, but totally stayed away from 3rd. Improved Demons are not my favorite enemy. (even though Demons were the racial enemy of my Archer)

The consensus is that Mirroring is busted and more or less unusable, while Vecna and Vhailor are acceptable especially if they are moved into ToB, where they are reasonably balanced. Vecna and Vhailor have the merit of being fun, too, which makes up for whatever balancing flaws the may have. Mirroring, in contrast, just makes things dumber.

Sometime ago, in this thread, I ran a solo halfling Priest of Talos through SCS/Ascension on insane. I had restricted Mirroring throughout the run, but I slipped it into the Bag of Holding and reserved the right to use if need be. I ended up using it in an uber-cheesy endgame strategy, which entailed leveraging an anomaly in the Ascension 2.0 battlefield. I'm glad I took that approach, because it suited the personality of my ruthless Talossan but I also denied her a place in our Hall of Heroes on the grounds that her end game tactics were too cheesy. Subsequently I allowed my transmuter, Alastria, to use Mirroring in an in insane Ascension solo (with reloads). I have mixed feeling about that. Mirroing is ridiculous, and it takes some of the fun out of playing a transmuter. At the same time, soloing Ascension with a transmuter is non-trivial and it kind of makes sense to leverage a legal strategy available to you once you take on a challenge that's that extreme.

In the end, it is always -always- up to the individual player to decide what's within bounds or out of bounds. Context matters, and an item that would be egregiously OP in one run might be acceptable in another. With an unkitted fighter, my inclination would be allow Vhailor using the SCS component that moves it into ToB. Mirroring, in contrast, would be a pass for me.

Thanks for the info. We're thinking alike, my thoughts on the fighter were exactly that - not use Cloak, but move Vhailor to ToB. I am still seriously dreading the Sendai fight, but I will probably try to make a build specifically for that fight (and I can already see that ironically I will die on something before that )

I think the line you wrote about Vecna and Vhailor being fun is spot on and exactly why I chose Vecna for my Fusrodah run and not the Cloak. The item is OP, but it doesn't automatically win you the battles, you still have to cast the right spells and the right time (though you do have a huge advantage). Mirroring I could see for myself could auto win some battles and wouldn't be fun to use at all. Btw do you use SCS mod to move Vecna? If so, how does a mage do solo 3rd level of watcher's keep?

 

[Finarfin]

are there some spells which the no reload community think are a bit cheesy? On my sorcerer run I decided to not use Project Image/Simulacrum/Wish, what do you think about those?

Like for example in hell Irenicus battle, wouldn't PI be almost auto win? you can stand near the stairs to one of the trials, cast PI and just play without thinking. And that could in theory be done in any big arena and is the reason why I limited the spell (exception the final battle of ToB).

Or just use buffs, and then PI->Wish to rest and get full spells again

 

[Alesia_BH]

are there some spells which the no reload community think are a bit cheesy? On my sorcerer run I decided to not use Project Image/Simulacrum/Wish, what do you think about those?

I have no problems at all with Simulacrum. The clones are helpful, but they are nerfed relative to the caster. I see nothing wrong with having a lower level sidekick with an expiration date. As for PI and Wish, those becomes essential spell book management tools in the endgame, so I'd strongly advise against restricting them. You could argue that Wish and PI are OP earlier on, but they're also mostly irrelevant. I rarely find myself using either prior to the throne. A fully stocked book is almost always a superior approach.

Many spells have both satisfying and unsatisfying uses. There's nothing inherently wrong with the L2 spell Invisibility, for example, but if you set up a wall of invisible blockers at every doorway and plink away at your foes with ranged weapons, Invisibility becomes ridiculous. Likewise with PI. If you're letting your PC hang back and sending a PI up ahead with summons and a wizard eye, it'll feel kind of broken. In contrast, if you are keeping your caster in the middle of battle field, PI becomes a tradeoff, since PI stasis incurs risks. I made an exception for my transmuter, Alastria, but, in general, the rule I use is that Mislead, PI, Simulacrum and summons more generally are fine IF you keep them near you and keep yourself in the heart of the battlefield.

With regards to the Irenicus fight specifically, the balance issue isn't PI or Wish. It's the ToB cap. That fight was balanced for the original XP cap of 2.95M. I rarely find myself doing this, but the correct way to fight that fight (and the rest of the late SoA material) is to respect the SoA cap, refraining from leveling up once you reach the last level allowed under the pre-ToB SoA cap.

 

[Alesia_BH]

I see. Atop of call for help from new SCS, those reinforcements also teleport in to the middle of arena now and those basic mage drows put protection from magic weapons which doesn't really make it any easier. Does Ava have improved Sendai?

Makes sense. Arkona's version of SCS had an Improved Calls for Help component too. It's possible that the radii have been expanded in recent editions, though. Not sure. As for ProMW, the support casters did use that in Arkona's edition.

The spawn point change is the clear difference maker here. That was almost certainly a deliberate attempt to prevent people from doing exactly what I did. With the spawn point change, I imagine I'd be using invisibility charges more, and pick my attack windows more carefully. At minimum it would be a longer and more arduous fight.

Ava is still a long way from ToB, and, as mentioned, I'm not sure she'll ever get there. I'm still not sure how much time I have to play. My package could arrive soon, in which case Ava won't even make it to Torgal, let alone Sendai. If she does get to ToB, I may or may not use the Abazigal and Sendai enclaves. We'll see. It'll depend on my mood. If I'm looking for a new challenge, sure. If I'm disinclined to blind run a difficulty spike, then no. Again, we'll see. It'll depend in part on how comfortable I end up being with the swashbuckler kit at high levels. With a barbarian I'd do it.

 

[Borco]

Likewise with PI. If you're letting your PC hang back and sending a PI up ahead with summons and a wizard eye, it'll feel kind of broken.

I'll chip in with an observation that I've made while playing Mephala on Insane in SoA, whereby some high level mages have been very aggressive in using Dimension Door to teleport on top of her at relatively long distances. I've seen it with the Shadow Temple liches, the Warden, Sion, Lavok, and maybe others. Since I don't recall this behaviour from the past when I was running Iona on Insane with my previous SCS 34.3 install, I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) that this might have something to do with the AI changes in SCS v35.

I'd now be extremely uncomfortable with using PI in this way (I did with Iona from time to time), as leaving the unbuffed original somewhere in the back could easily expose it to an ambush by a teleporting mage while the PI keeps itself busy on the front lines.

 

[Alesia_BH]

I'd now be extremely uncomfortable with using PI in this way (I did with Iona from time to time), as leaving the unbuffed original somewhere in the back could easily expose it to an ambush by a teleporting mage while the PI keeps itself busy on the front lines.

Noted. Thanks for sharing. That wouldn't obsolete the tactic, but it would limit its domain of applicability.

In any case, I do find that approach inadvisable. It can trivialize encounters and limit your development as a caster.

 

[Borco]

In any case, I do find that approach inadvisable. It can trivialize encounters and limit your development as a caster.

That's precisely the reason why I wanted to re-run Iona and try a more direct and confident approach with the PIs.

I experimented a little with her old saves and I've encountered one issue that has forced me to return to the drawing board with her book. Death Fog can be a bit clumsy when trying make it work with PIs - it's slow to set up from scratch (for the PI to prepare Pro Acid and cast the actual spell takes ages even under IA, not to mention multiple layers) and it's generally difficult to pair the two via triggers / contingencies. But since it's been sort of a signature spell for Iona v2, I still wanted to build around it in the new run.

However, it seems that Death Fog's ticking damage is treated as a hit on the caster even if you're immune to acid, thus cancelling your PI if the original is standing in the AoE. It's not a deal breaker, but I'm still thinking towards moving away from it in favor of other spells, or maybe just keeping it in reserve as the last L6 spell, but ditching ProAcid altogether.

 

[Finarfin]

I have no problems at all with Simulacrum. The clones are helpful, but they are nerfed relative to the caster. I see nothing wrong with having a lower level sidekick with an expiration date. As for PI and Wish, those becomes essential spell book management tools in the endgame, so I'd strongly advise against restricting them. You could argue that Wish and PI are OP earlier on, but they're also mostly irrelevant. I rarely find myself using either prior to the throne. A fully stocked book is almost always a superior approach..

I agree that it's always a superior approach to have all spells before big battles, question was more whether people think it's cheesy or fair tactic. Since I am totally new to community, i am trying to find out what's OK and what's not OK if that makes sense . Not really sure about Ascension, but in SCS I never really needed PI-Wish combo in the run (except for final battle), though it would have made some battles much easier where I would not have to think that much about scrolls. Same goes for PI I guess, it would have been really nice to have, but not essential. (again, it's SCS not Ascension which might be totally different). I also used Robe of Vecna without which I might have though about these spells a bit differently.

Many spells have both satisfying and unsatisfying uses. There's nothing inherently wrong with the L2 spell Invisibility, for example, but if you set up a wall of invisible blockers at every doorway and plink away at your foes with ranged weapons, Invisibility becomes ridiculous. Likewise with PI. If you're letting your PC hang back and sending a PI up ahead with summons and a wizard eye, it'll feel kind of broken. In contrast, if you are keeping your caster in the middle of battle field, PI becomes a tradeoff, since PI stasis incurs risks. I made an exception for my transmuter, Alastria, but, in general, the rule I use is that Mislead, PI, Simulacrum and summons more generally are fine IF you keep them near you and keep yourself in the heart of the battlefield.

Never though about L2 Invisibility that way, it will never be the same haha. Reason I asked about PI was that long time ago I read about it and how it can be misused really easily and that's the reason I stayed away from the spell. But as you are saying - if you set yourself some rules that you have to use it in the middle of the battle fairly compared to staying away while PI+Summons+Wizard's eye take care of it, it's fine. Then it's high risk-high reward.

With regards to the Irenicus fight specifically, the balance issue isn't PI or Wish. It's the ToB cap. That fight was balanced for the original XP cap of 2.95M. I rarely find myself doing this, but the correct way to fight that fight (and the rest of the late SoA material) is to respect the SoA cap, refraining from leveling up once you reach the last level allowed under the pre-ToB SoA cap.

We were actually talking about this a while ago with @Borco that it would have been fair not to use HLA in SoA and that fight. But then again, any extra help against SCS Improved Demons is welcome. I think it's fair at least to stay away from Planetar who is totally OP at that point of game.


To be honest, I remember when I started playing BG2 over 20 years ago, I used any tactic available - I fake-talked the liches since I had no idea how to fight them and I am pretty sure at one point I got both Blackrazor and +2 saves at the same time in hell

 

[Finarfin]

I think in the end, the most important thing is to have fun and to feel yourself whether you are playing fair or misusing the game. If one is using a tactic one does not enjoy it's not worth it imho, even if it brings results

 

[Alesia_BH]

I think in the end, the most important thing is to have fun and to feel yourself whether you are playing fair or misusing the game. If one is using a tactic one does not enjoy it's not worth it imho, even if it brings results

Agreed!

 

[Alesia_BH]

I agree that it's always a superior approach to have all spells before big battles

Just to clarify, what I meant was that in the vast majority of battles it’s smarter to skip PI and Wish and allocate those slots to other spells. PI and Wish are superfluous in most fights and they crowd out other spells. They also add unnecessary complexity and introduce risk, via PI stasis or the djinni dialogue. What I meant by “fully stocked book” is a book filled with productive spells, to the exclusion of the spell book management tools, PI and Wish.

In general, I see no need to restrict PI and Wish because they are either suboptimal or indispensable, depending on the circumstances. The exception would be sending a PI up ahead as a disposable copy, allowing you to dump your spell book without risk. In this case it’s the usage, not the spell, that’s the problem, though- just like with the invisible blockers method. I’d never jettison Invisibility just because invisible blockers are a thing. Instead I refrain from using invisible blockers. Likewise with PI.