The Candlekeep Annex: RPed Baldur’s Gate No and Low Reload Adventures

[Alesia_BH]

I couldn't believe it. The game came to an end because of wanting to see the Amazing Oompah explode one more time. One blow is all it took.

Do you know the Busta Rhymes song Woo-Hah! I Got You All in Check? I like picturing the Amazing Oompah doing a little celebratory dance to that song with a slight lyrical change:

“Oompah! I got you all in check!”

 

[Borco]

@Alesia_BH I've been eagerly awaiting every new post like it was my fave TV series! It's amazing how an old game can be brought into life through this format and your narrative. I love the crew and I was relieved to see them pull through that Suna Seni encounter (Alena's got nerves of steel)! Thank you for sharing and keep up the great work!

 

[Alesia_BH]

Thank you for your support, Borco. I’m glad you’re enjoying it. To be honest, I’ve felt a little guilty about the write ups on this one. I’ve been taking a super-lazy approach. I could definitely make things more informative and fun. I’ll try to do that going forward.

Anyhoo, once again, thanks: I appreciate the encouragement!

 

[Alesia_BH]

Quick Note on Alena's Game:

Hi, all. I've run into an awkward situation and I'm not sure how to handle it. We're basically stuck right now, due to a bug and an unexpected interaction.

The incident occurred during a waylay. We were traveling invisible, when we were ambushed by the orc group. We headed north, called our summons, buffed and laid down our traps. So far so good.

We sent the summons forward and then had Jaheira cast Insect Plague. The insects spread to all enemies, including the mage. With casting presumably shutdown, we moved in, led by Minsc. To my surprise, the mage kept casting. Evidently there is a bug related to Insect Plague and its associated casting failure effect in this edition of SCS. The targeted Minsc with a Flesh to Stone, and Minsc failed his save.

With the revised death effect component installed, petrified NPCs don't leave the party. They remain with their portraits greyed out. If you need to leave the area to get a stone to flesh scroll, you're supposed to kick them out, and they should be waiting for you. Per the read me:

• Characters who are petrified likewise remain in the party. If kicked out (e.g. because you need to leave the area to get a Stone to Flesh scroll) they remain in the area and can be restored as normal.

Unfortunately, this happened during a waylay, and in waylay areas the reform party button is greyed out. Since we can't leave the area with Minsc in the party, and we can't remove him, the only way forward is to destroy his statue. This seems regrettable, since the petrification only occurred because of a bug in the first place, and this is clearly not how SCS's revised death effect component was intended to work.

What does everyone think? How should I handle this? I'm leaning towards destroying Minsc, but I'm curious to hear other views. Thoughts?

 

[Serg_BlackStrider]

What about loading an autosave before waylay? I think in this situation it's perfectly permitted.

 

[JanJansen]

This may be a dumb question but are you sure the mage didn't simply have Stoneskin?

Also, isn't there a component that gives a saving throw to the casting failure each round? Maybe you have that installed?

With that said, such effects in a random encounter suck because there is no way back. In BG1 you would have been prepared because there is that possible basilisk encounter. When it happens unexpected, it really sucks.

 

[Xzarloxara]

This may be a dumb question but are you sure the mage didn't simply have Stoneskin?

Also, isn't there a component that gives a saving throw to the casting failure each round? Maybe you have that installed?

With that said, such effects in a random encounter suck because there is no way back. In BG1 you would have been prepared because there is that possible basilisk encounter. When it happens unexpected, it really sucks.

Yeah, by default SCS nerfs the Insect Plague and Creeping Doom spells to the point of practical worthlessness. I play with SCS, but I disabled that component because it goes WAY THE HECK OVER THE TOP with the nerfing. Lets see if I can even recall all the nerfs by memory...

• Spell failure only applies for one round on a failed save made each round.
• Death Spell instantly removes the spell.
• Stoneskins protect from spell failure until removed or eaten through.
• Fireshields block the spell.
• All undead are immune to the spell.
• All creatures immune to non-magical weapons are immune to the spell.

 

[Xzarloxara]

What does everyone think? How should I handle this? I'm leaning towards destroying Minsc, but I'm curious to hear other views. Thoughts?

Theoretically, his statue should still be there, provided you can get waylaid in that area again, but it may take quite a while to get waylaid again.

 

[Antimatter]

If your statement is true (the reform party button being greyed out in waylay areas), I would uninstall the revised death effect component and replay the battle. Because I would say that being able to come back to a petrified party member is an essential part of the gameplay (and also fair according to D&D rules). Also, some SCS changes between different versions of this mod seem too drastic.

 

[Borco]

I concur with the others that the SCS Insect Plague spell failure is not guaranteed due to above mentioned mitigants/protections (even though I'm not sure to which extent the spell failure effect is linked to the actual ticking damage, i.e. whether Stoneskins or PfNW will stop it, but there's definitely that saving throw allowed plus Fireshield or SI:C should stop everything).

Having said that, IIRC then petrification of a party member should typically result in them being removed from the party automatically. If that were to be the case, you should be able to "revisit" the area through another ambush, apply Stone to Flesh and have Minsc rejoin the party. Your guys would of course remember where the ambush has happened, so I would not worry too much about the technical limitation of not being able to actively visit the waylaid areas. All in all, I'm totally in support of a reload or other ways (via console) of brining Minsc back at the cost of one StF scroll. At the same time, I personally would be inclined to take the result as is - it's tough and arguably unfair, however it opens up the challenge of having to find a replacement for your lost character and his valuable equipment, not to mention the emotional experience of mourning a lost friend.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Theoretically, his statue should still be there, provided you can get waylaid in that area again, but it may take quite a while to get waylaid again.

That’s what I was planning to do but I can’t remove him from the party due to the interaction between the Revised Handling of Death Effects component and the waylay.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Yeah, by default SCS nerfs the Insect Plague and Creeping Doom spells to the point of practical worthlessness. I play with SCS, but I disabled that component because it goes WAY THE HECK OVER THE TOP with the nerfing. Lets see if I can even recall all the nerfs by memory...

Makes sense. That used to be an optional component and since I hadn’t installed anything relating to the insect spells I was assuming they worked as usual. This is the second time that assumption led to problems. I should have figured it out by now.

When he changes spells he should update the spell description. In game it still says there is a 100% chance of spell failure.

 

[Alesia_BH]

The general standard for bug reload has always been, “A game breaking bug that unequivocally subverts developer intent.”

The Insect Plague behavior does not count. That was intentional, per my install options.

The interaction between the Revised Handling of Death effects component and the waylay seems unintended. The component was meant to streamline the game’s handling of death effects, not complicate them. This was probably a possibility that David hadn’t considered when he made the change.

To my mind the question become whether the loss of Minsc is “game breaking.” In a canon party run you can make that case. I’m undecided.

Re-adding Minsc at the cost of a Stone to Flesh scroll is a defensible approach. If things were working as they should we’d remove him and return. The only trouble with that approach is that there is no guarantee his statue would survive the next waylay encounter. If it weren’t for the oddities of waylay areas- specifically that you can’t just go back to them whenever you want, I’d feel more comfortable

 

[JanJansen]

I would say re-adding Minsc at the cost of the scroll is the easier way out compared to uninstalling the Revised Death component and replaying the battle, because the challenge of how to otherwise handle the fight without the guaranteed insect plague spell failure is still there.
Unless of course you come to the conclusion that you installed that component unintentionally and wouldn't have picked it before if you had read the full description.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Unless of course you come to the conclusion that you installed that component unintentionally and wouldn't have picked it before if you had read the full description.

I read the description. I just didn’t anticipate the interaction between the component and waylay encounters. My guess is that David hadn’t thought of it either.

As for replaying the battle, I don’t imagine that would be a problem. Had I known about the change I would have played things differently. I’m confident we could keep Mincs and the rest of the party safe.

To my eyes it really comes down to whether the loss of Minsc is “game breaking.” I’m still undecided.

As I recall, the closest precedent we have is the loss of Cassia in Serg’s run. Cassia had died to a petrification effect in a Sphere of Chaos. She had 100% magic resistance, at the time, so Serg expected her to be safe. After checking the file, we noted that the petrification effect had been flagged bypass resistance. IIRC, we concluded that the loss of Cassia was game breaking, but that we could not say that the bypass resistances entry had “unequivocally subverted developer intent’” It could have been a mistake. It could have been deliberate. We had no way to know for certain. It’s a strange spell, after all.

I feel confident that David didn’t intend for this to happen, although there is some complexity to that matter, too. He intended for the component to work as it does, keeping the character in the party. I don’t believe he intend it to have the effect that it had in these circumstances, stranding party members on waylays. For the US based lawyers in the house, the view that David did not “intend” for this to happen therefore requires a dual intent standard, as per Colorado tort law. Under the standard in other jurisdictions this case would fail the intent prong.

I’m leaning towards giving Minsc’s case a pass on the intent. Not sure about game breaking

 

[Selerel]

Dumb question which I'm sure you thought of, but there's no other way to remove Minsc from the party? Via console action or something like that?

Or using the console to forcibly move your party to another area?

 

[Alesia_BH]

Dumb question which I'm sure you thought of, but there's no other way to remove Minsc from the party? Via console action or something like that?

This is the second time someone has made an excellent point in this thread prefaced by the phrase “dumb question,” lol.

That would be an ideal solution, imo. And yes: presumably there is a way to execute. I’m adverse to console use, so I’m not an expert on that by a long shot. In most of my installs I don’t even activate the console. It’s not active, atm.

But, yes: that would be perfect. We’d have a chance to save Minsc, as we should, but he’d also have a chance to die, as he should.

 

[Alesia_BH]

Btw, I’m going to stop replying for a half hour or so. I’m watching a super-exciting Street Fighter tournament taking place in Japan

 

[JanJansen]

I especially think you should not try to split hairs with a potential jury, because you don't need to explain yourself to anyone else. You need to be at peace with the solution.
I know that losing a party member I intended to keep, a friend, to a bad combination of factors out of my control (as opposed to me making a mistake in a fight) would kill all enjoyment of the rest of the game.
Sure, no-reload is not a casual thing, but it is still a game you play for your own enjoyment. You are the one who needs to be satisfied with the outcome and the way you reached it.

 

[Alesia_BH]

I especially think you should not try to split hairs with a potential jury, because you don't need to explain yourself to anyone else. You need to be at peace with the solution.

Thank you for your perspective!

In the no reload challenge thread we have a long tradition of rendering these decisions by consensus. The final decision is left to the player, in recognition of the fact that it is their game, but everyone is encouraged to weigh in. In virtually all cases, players have gone along with the community decision, by mutual agreement.

My approach here is consistent with that history. Rendering a decision without soliciting input would conflict with that history.