Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous General Discussion, Playthroughs and Minimal/No Reload Thread
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Bronn The Thundercaller. Update 5.
Our party survived 2 ambushes: one with several waves of large fire elementals and another with dangerous goblins. It wasn't easy as the party was depleted of their spells. Valerie's starting to show how good she is as a tank (we bought a ring +2 for her and equipped a +2 DEX belt on her - because her Mithral plate armour allows up to +3 DEX bonuses).
We handled Torpor, the Great Nightmare. Nightmare is what this horse could turn out to be if we messed with the fight. Considering the success vs the wisp, we tried the same combo here: to make the horse shaken and then stun it with Bronn's ability (which quickly turns out to be the most valuable feature of the whole party). Those 5 seconds are usually enough to substantially decrease the target's HPs. Repeat if needed.
We got huge XP boosts from the Poisonous Giant Flytrap and the Lonely Warrior (well the Lonely Barrow was full of XP checks overall, we left the ancient golems there for the future, though).
Now, the ultimate challenge for the lvl 6 party. The Dweomerlion. Not only this creature has lvl 17, it has an insane number of APR and amazing DEX so hitting this thing is really difficult. Also, you can't cast during the fight, or this lion will teleport to your caster and kill them quickly. Turned out, though, that Shaken - Stunned - Dead works wonders on the lion. Note how the fight didn't go ideally at first, with the lion dispelling protections on Valerie and bringing her to 0 HP in no time.
This brought us to lvl 7 already. We're still ~25 days from the Baldhill attack and the official start of Chapter 2. Lvl 7 means lvl 3 spells for Bronn, lvl 4 spells for Harrim, Valerie, Amiri and Jaethal now got Outflank, Valerie also got Shatter Defenses. Amiri and Harrim now have Blind Fight. Jaethal got Improved Initiative, Octavia and Bronn got Spell Penetration.
Our party survived 2 ambushes: one with several waves of large fire elementals and another with dangerous goblins. It wasn't easy as the party was depleted of their spells. Valerie's starting to show how good she is as a tank (we bought a ring +2 for her and equipped a +2 DEX belt on her - because her Mithral plate armour allows up to +3 DEX bonuses).
We handled Torpor, the Great Nightmare. Nightmare is what this horse could turn out to be if we messed with the fight. Considering the success vs the wisp, we tried the same combo here: to make the horse shaken and then stun it with Bronn's ability (which quickly turns out to be the most valuable feature of the whole party). Those 5 seconds are usually enough to substantially decrease the target's HPs. Repeat if needed.
We got huge XP boosts from the Poisonous Giant Flytrap and the Lonely Warrior (well the Lonely Barrow was full of XP checks overall, we left the ancient golems there for the future, though).
Now, the ultimate challenge for the lvl 6 party. The Dweomerlion. Not only this creature has lvl 17, it has an insane number of APR and amazing DEX so hitting this thing is really difficult. Also, you can't cast during the fight, or this lion will teleport to your caster and kill them quickly. Turned out, though, that Shaken - Stunned - Dead works wonders on the lion. Note how the fight didn't go ideally at first, with the lion dispelling protections on Valerie and bringing her to 0 HP in no time.
This brought us to lvl 7 already. We're still ~25 days from the Baldhill attack and the official start of Chapter 2. Lvl 7 means lvl 3 spells for Bronn, lvl 4 spells for Harrim, Valerie, Amiri and Jaethal now got Outflank, Valerie also got Shatter Defenses. Amiri and Harrim now have Blind Fight. Jaethal got Improved Initiative, Octavia and Bronn got Spell Penetration.
alice_ashpool
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Yeah, there is a lot of time if you don't claim outskirts. For comparison here is my latest order:
- Loot everything in Capital, Buy Valerie the Tower Shield, Convert almost all cash to BP
- Build Longhouse, Pier, Watchtower and maybe a couple of other buildings
- Claim Outskirts
- Clear Ratnook Hill (perfectly fine at level 5)
- Visit Bokken, Claim resources on the way, Build Workshop
- Clear Silent and Tranquil River bend (best to do river bend in 1 go but there is about 24h leeway on this route)
- Return to capital
- Clear Gudrin River Bridge (likewise in 1 go)
- Return to capital
- There is enough time to do the Dwarf Ruins/Watchtower Loop here, even though you don't get Ekun (Excluding Lone House) This saves time. Should be able to get to ruins and clear on 1 rest, then rest after and do Bandit Camp then return to capital.
- Troll Trouble Triggers (might need to skip 1 day)
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What is the benefit of doing that? Why do you need buildings and the extra region that early? How does that affect gameplay? (just curious, not criticizing)
alice_ashpool
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Depends on what difficulty you are playing your kingdom management. The faster you claim things the more you can accelerate your BP income, your Advisor upgrades, and your artisans - which will bring in cash which you can feed back into the kingdom. I'd say for Normal or Hard management you really want to prioritize the kingdom over everything - if you are playing Easy or Effortless you have way more lee-way.
The buildings likewise give you a bit of a push towards getting those first advisor upgrades asap.
m7600
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Charname is romancing Kanerah (from The Wildcards DLC), though she's slept a few times with Octavia. If in the future, she has to break up with one of them, she'll probably break up with Octavia.
Update on my run: Charname was invited to king Irovetti's Rushlight Tournament. Irovetti is the king of Pitax, a country which was, decades ago, basically a nation of pirtates, corsairs, smuggles, etc. Nowadays, they try to seem more civilized, and the Rushlight Tournament invites all of the kings and queens from the neighbouring countries to have some fun. But it seems that the Pitaxians can't quite forget about their swashbuckling past. For example, Irovetti himself told Charname that the best part of the tournament is going to be a drunken melee. As if a regular melee wasn't savage enough, he thinks that the nobles will have fun by participating in a drunken melee. No doubt, this sort of entertainment is more suitable for the deck of a pirate ship, instead of the courtyard of a king. But, in all fairness, Charname is a savage as well, so of course she'll have some fun crushing a few skulls in the drunken melee.
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m7600
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So, I've been trying to think who is my favorite character in this game. It's really difficult to decide, they're all really well made. Ultimately, though, if I have to choose just one, I think it would be Harrim. His story is just amazingly original and creative. He doesn't really do much in terms of mechanics, I think Tristian is a better healer. But his story is the one that impressed me the most. Especially his bitter attitude towards Torag, the god of the dwarves. I don't want to spoil too much, but I still remember the scene in the Troll fortress, where he looked at the broken statue of Torag and said something like "you abandoned this statue just like you abandoned me, you traitor god."
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While Tristian might be a better healer, Harrim's place in my parties has never been in doubt. Maybe that's what I expect from my cleric, to be able to hold the line at least a bit once the main tank falls. With Tristian unable to wear any armour, he couldn't do that. I also expect my clerics to wear a shield and be able to hit in melee when called upon. So I don't agree Harrim doesn't do much in terms of mechanics, - he's one of the essential party members for me. Also, I always looked at Tristian and thought: he's not for me, he's too stubborn and too goody-shoes. Harrim has seen a lot in his life and doesn't judge people that easily.
If I have to choose just one companion I like the most in this game, I would pick Jaethal. I remember I saw her portrait before starting to play the game, and her story came as a total surprise to me (I could never imagine she was an undead from the portrait). It's very interesting to explore dialogue options with her about life and death, what is fun and what is life. Her unique race provides interesting tactical options for combat. She has that badass aura around her and what she's doing / how she's behaving.
That's a great topic - I'm looking forward to hearing others' thoughts on their favourite NPC from Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Bronn The Thundercaller. Update 6.
I decided to use the Lake Silverstep Village area as a testing ground for this party: with the second wand of Extend, I could now make 6 buffs last rather long (up to 10 mins), so my intent was to cover the whole area in those 10 minutes without any rests (from previous playthroughs I remembered nixies can become rather annoying). I also intended to explore the cave without any additional preparation because when I first played the game I had no idea what to expect. You'll see where it led me to.
What had become our usual combat pattern (Undead summons - Shaken - CC spells), worked just fine on these faeries. Having Unbreakable Heart available at will on the main character helped a lot.
We succeeded in handling all monsters during our buffs were active.
The Zombie Cyclop in the cave gave us our new "Boggard moment". With his attacks inflicting such damage as 126 and 115, there was just no way for us to survive. The party was depleted on spells, didn't rest, and didn't come pre-buffed with the Fear protection, so essentially it went bad from the first second. My intent was exactly that - to be able to see just how bad it would go. Because I think that resting just for this one encounter after we've just completed the whole area would be metagaming.
What helped us here? Basically, the Cyclop first killed 4 characters, then went for those 2 who were still under Fear (in the opposite corner of the cave). This allowed Jaethal to "raise" and thus the fight resumed with everyone having 1 hp left. Considering Web from Octavia and a few Grease spells were still in effect, the Cyclop got stuck a few times which allowed us to kill it using our wands and scrolls. Why keep wands and scrolls if we don't use them? That's why we used absolutely everything here. The Cyclop killed Valerie (so we had to spend 6k on buying a Raise Dead scroll for her) which I consider fair and fitting the theme of this quest. An ominous danger from a strange wooden box turned out to be dangerous indeed but we handled it in the most heroic way.
If I have to choose just one companion I like the most in this game, I would pick Jaethal. I remember I saw her portrait before starting to play the game, and her story came as a total surprise to me (I could never imagine she was an undead from the portrait). It's very interesting to explore dialogue options with her about life and death, what is fun and what is life. Her unique race provides interesting tactical options for combat. She has that badass aura around her and what she's doing / how she's behaving.
That's a great topic - I'm looking forward to hearing others' thoughts on their favourite NPC from Pathfinder: Kingmaker.
Bronn The Thundercaller. Update 6.
I decided to use the Lake Silverstep Village area as a testing ground for this party: with the second wand of Extend, I could now make 6 buffs last rather long (up to 10 mins), so my intent was to cover the whole area in those 10 minutes without any rests (from previous playthroughs I remembered nixies can become rather annoying). I also intended to explore the cave without any additional preparation because when I first played the game I had no idea what to expect. You'll see where it led me to.
What had become our usual combat pattern (Undead summons - Shaken - CC spells), worked just fine on these faeries. Having Unbreakable Heart available at will on the main character helped a lot.
We succeeded in handling all monsters during our buffs were active.
The Zombie Cyclop in the cave gave us our new "Boggard moment". With his attacks inflicting such damage as 126 and 115, there was just no way for us to survive. The party was depleted on spells, didn't rest, and didn't come pre-buffed with the Fear protection, so essentially it went bad from the first second. My intent was exactly that - to be able to see just how bad it would go. Because I think that resting just for this one encounter after we've just completed the whole area would be metagaming.
What helped us here? Basically, the Cyclop first killed 4 characters, then went for those 2 who were still under Fear (in the opposite corner of the cave). This allowed Jaethal to "raise" and thus the fight resumed with everyone having 1 hp left. Considering Web from Octavia and a few Grease spells were still in effect, the Cyclop got stuck a few times which allowed us to kill it using our wands and scrolls. Why keep wands and scrolls if we don't use them? That's why we used absolutely everything here. The Cyclop killed Valerie (so we had to spend 6k on buying a Raise Dead scroll for her) which I consider fair and fitting the theme of this quest. An ominous danger from a strange wooden box turned out to be dangerous indeed but we handled it in the most heroic way.
Serg_BlackStrider
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It's far too early for me to make a final (or even close enough to) judgement, but at the moment my preferred Crew looks something like this:
And I even have not played Kalikke/Kanerah all too much to make a well-founded decision (I like Kalikke so far but still have very limited experience with her and her sister).
alice_ashpool
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Harrim
An 18 Wis Cleric with decent strength and some slightly fiddly domains. Imo more useful than Tristian with my play-style, though both are clerics ergo both are powerful spellcasters
Tristian is the "better healer", but I think that misses the point that in combat healing is a bit of a crutch. I take Harrim, have him cast offensively or fight in the 2nd line, and heal up afterwards. Clerics are afterall primarily level 9 spellcasters.
Tristian is made of wet tissue and needs to hide at the back with a crossbow while Harrim is very useful if you have a low melee-party for granting Outflank to e.g. Valerie
Other things Harrim does well:
Boneshaker
Slapping people with Inflict X Wounds against touch AC
All the same buffing that tristian can do
In short he is a real all-rounder: what he loses in healing he makes up in being a combat spell-caster.
Example feat progression:
An 18 Wis Cleric with decent strength and some slightly fiddly domains. Imo more useful than Tristian with my play-style, though both are clerics ergo both are powerful spellcasters
Tristian is the "better healer", but I think that misses the point that in combat healing is a bit of a crutch. I take Harrim, have him cast offensively or fight in the 2nd line, and heal up afterwards. Clerics are afterall primarily level 9 spellcasters.
Tristian is made of wet tissue and needs to hide at the back with a crossbow while Harrim is very useful if you have a low melee-party for granting Outflank to e.g. Valerie
Other things Harrim does well:
Boneshaker
Slapping people with Inflict X Wounds against touch AC
All the same buffing that tristian can do
In short he is a real all-rounder: what he loses in healing he makes up in being a combat spell-caster.
Example feat progression:
1 | |
2 | |
3 | SF: Necromancy |
4 | |
5 | GSF: Necromancy |
6 | |
7 | Outflank |
8 | |
9 | Shake It off |
10 | |
11 | Spell Penetration |
12 | |
13 | Greater Spell Penetration |
m7600
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What I meant was that, mechanically, Harrim seems to be more of a generalist rather than a specialist. True, you can build him as a nuker, especially with necromancy spells. That's basically what I have him in my party for. He uses Harm, Destruction, Slay Living, Death Clutch, etc. And he's also useful for his restoration spells. But what I meant was that he's not as good a tank as Valerie or Amiri. And as a spellcaster, he doesn't deal as much damage as Octavia, if you build her as an Arcane Trickster. As a healer, he can't really compete with Tristian in that department. So Harrim is kind of a jack of all trades, but master of none. That being said, I do prefer him over Tristian, he's far more useful, it's just that he doesn't really shine in any particular area. Which might be a good thing, a generalist can be a good addition to a party of specialists.
Serg_BlackStrider
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Why? Yes, I've noticed watching your videos, that you never heal during combat, but IMO with Selective Channel Feat Tristian is quite useful if you need fast healing right now. He also could be shaped to act as an AoE fire nuker who don't rely on attack rolls and could be very powerful on that. I also often use his Blessing of the Faithful ability (sacred bonus to skills/abilities checks) in conjunction with Linzi's Inspire Competence for cruicial checks since I have not another chance on Last Azlanti Mode. Bonded Holy Symbol is also quite useful when you need some situational spell you don't want to memorize all day long or for yet another cast of Resist/Protection (from) Poison/Energy. Communal or something without resting.
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Bronn The Thundercaller. Update 7.
The last area we visited before Chapter 2 was Talon Peak. The fight vs the Roc on the rock had no new surprises-- we rocked on, I guess. We enjoyed getting a reward for bringing the Roc's egg to our Tavern (5k gold).
We started experimenting with Dazzling Display / Single Demoralization ability, for example, hiding Jaethal in shadows and opening fights with these (and due to Improved Initiative, she usually can use that ability again in mere seconds after that). This allows us to totally stop enemy spellcasters from casting (due to them running away in Fear instead of any action) and worsens enemies' AC and saving throws by 2 from the very beginning.
We also started to appreciate the Fascinate song: against such enemies as trolls and wolves, it's a life-saver: to be able to stop all enemies in a vast radius from proceeding to vulnerable party members, and very quickly.
We approached Crag Linnorm while still at lvl 7. The key spell here (on top of our usual buffs / debuffs) was Protection from Energy (cleric's lvl 4 spell) - being totally immune to fire, instead of just resisting some damage (I had the fight vs Torpor in mind where I couldn't handle its fire damage) allowed us not to bother with healing and focus on dealing damage ourselves (after all, we had to overcome Grag's 10 hp per round regeneration ability). It was fun to even stun the great lizard once.
The win brought us to lvl 8. Considering we've got some beef that early in the game, handling Greater Enraged Owlbears and other enemies in the swamp area wasn't difficult (we even managed to clear the whole map without additional rests). One of the shots below shows how effective Fear is - I've been reading online that the Dazzling Display build is difficult to use but personally I'm really liking it - yes, you need to micromanage the moment enemies start running away, but in return, it provides tons of Attacks of Opportunity towards otherwise formidable foes and allows us to use ranged weapons for additional damage (when these enemies run away and then come back). Protection from Energy also helped a great deal here (Electricity and Acid) - maybe Resist Energy will be enough in the future, but for this stage of the game, we needed Protection (which we can even recast once we received enough damage that the spell "ate").
On a side note, I'm enjoying using Battering Blast by Octavia - high damage (especially with the wand of Maximize), sneak attack and good to-hit chances make it a great spell.
I also have to admit that so far the bard class for the main character has been very effective. I would almost call all Thundercaller's abilities and tricks the most important in the whole group, but they are especially good in combination with other spells and abilities we use, such as Shaken / Fear / Sickened. The bard is both a crowd-control character and a damage dealer (yes, those Thunder Calls are becoming quite damaging for enemies), and because he has high CHA (for dialogues and other similar checks) I feel involved in the game. When I first created this character, I thought he would be ok-ish at best, it was hard to imagine so much power and combat control from a bard instead of a sorcerer. The bard also has some healing / curing spells ready whenever I need them, such as Delay Poison Communal or (now) Remove Curse. And of course, using Jaethal and Valerie as partial thugs gives the party extra muscles. Being "a defensive tank" didn't stop Valerie from reliably hitting Crag Linnorm, for example.
The last area we visited before Chapter 2 was Talon Peak. The fight vs the Roc on the rock had no new surprises-- we rocked on, I guess.
We enjoyed getting a reward for bringing the Roc's egg to our Tavern (5k gold).We started experimenting with Dazzling Display / Single Demoralization ability, for example, hiding Jaethal in shadows and opening fights with these (and due to Improved Initiative, she usually can use that ability again in mere seconds after that). This allows us to totally stop enemy spellcasters from casting (due to them running away in Fear instead of any action) and worsens enemies' AC and saving throws by 2 from the very beginning.
On a side note, I'm enjoying using Battering Blast by Octavia - high damage (especially with the wand of Maximize), sneak attack and good to-hit chances make it a great spell.
I also have to admit that so far the bard class for the main character has been very effective. I would almost call all Thundercaller's abilities and tricks the most important in the whole group, but they are especially good in combination with other spells and abilities we use, such as Shaken / Fear / Sickened. The bard is both a crowd-control character and a damage dealer (yes, those Thunder Calls are becoming quite damaging for enemies), and because he has high CHA (for dialogues and other similar checks) I feel involved in the game. When I first created this character, I thought he would be ok-ish at best, it was hard to imagine so much power and combat control from a bard instead of a sorcerer. The bard also has some healing / curing spells ready whenever I need them, such as Delay Poison Communal or (now) Remove Curse. And of course, using Jaethal and Valerie as partial thugs gives the party extra muscles. Being "a defensive tank" didn't stop Valerie from reliably hitting Crag Linnorm, for example.
alice_ashpool
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I guess really it comes down to play style. Personally, I don't like it as I would rather go all out. i think the received wisdom is about action economy but I do like the idea that most fights can be done without mid-combat healing and so try not to use it. When it comes to Harrim, with his limited channels I don't like taking selective channel because of feat tempo. Likewise in WotR I like Daeran but not that he has Extra Channel and Selective Channel as locked in feats.
On Harrim being a generalist, yes, he does a bit of everything which as you say can be useful in a party of specialists. I tend to think of harrim as an offensive cleric with a side-line in melee and tristian as an offensive cleric with a side-line in healing.
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Man, when I first played and completed P:K, I didn't receive a Masterpiece item even once (I played without spoilers so had no idea what I needed to do to get them). These 2 items look so cool, definitely among the best items the game could provide. Congrats, @m7600! Bronn will try to get Masterpieces from Artisans, that's for sure.
Bronn The Thundercaller. Update 8.
In the Dwarven Ruins, we used the approaches we had developed-- for good results. Intimidating enemies before the battle starts:
Fascinating enemies when they suddenly go for squishy party members:
With such hard-hitting enemies like trolls, this tactic was the only way to save ourselves from spending healing and/or getting Death Doors.
The Hargulka fight. I was wondering how it would go and prepared for the worst. We opened up with Animate Dead and then focused all the efforts on Tartuk (because I got a habit from Baldur's Gate to focus on spellcasters ASAP). He was dead in seconds, with Amiri dealing 104 damage in one hit. Then, we managed to Fear Hargulka, which led to ~15 attacks of opportunity, and it ended the fight just there. No chance for the troll.
We spared Hargulka-- and over the Internet, I learned that I could spare Tartuk instead if he was the one attacked second. This is a flaw in the design, in my opinion: while in combat, the player shouldn't metagame whom to kill first so that they could spare another opponent. I think the game should have handled the battle this way: you defeat enemies, and after the fight, you can decide their fate. Imagine "accidentally" killing Lavok in the Planar Sphere in BG2. And that is a game from 1999.
I can also say that I found the dungeon layout of the Dwarven Ruins disappointing: so many rooms are unavailable without keys (and you keep finding these keys but can't open even the first door - as you need to defeat Hargulka in order to that). A puzzle that can be solved if you change levels of the dungeon (and you need to do that quite a few times, all with long area loading processes). So many perception check spots which you can miss if your perception character doesn't come close enough (for example, due to their placement in the 6-members party) even while you THINK you have explored this spot. A bit of an ugh! dungeon for me, really.
Bronn The Thundercaller. Update 8.
In the Dwarven Ruins, we used the approaches we had developed-- for good results. Intimidating enemies before the battle starts:
Fascinating enemies when they suddenly go for squishy party members:
The Hargulka fight. I was wondering how it would go and prepared for the worst. We opened up with Animate Dead and then focused all the efforts on Tartuk (because I got a habit from Baldur's Gate to focus on spellcasters ASAP). He was dead in seconds, with Amiri dealing 104 damage in one hit. Then, we managed to Fear Hargulka, which led to ~15 attacks of opportunity, and it ended the fight just there. No chance for the troll.
I can also say that I found the dungeon layout of the Dwarven Ruins disappointing: so many rooms are unavailable without keys (and you keep finding these keys but can't open even the first door - as you need to defeat Hargulka in order to that). A puzzle that can be solved if you change levels of the dungeon (and you need to do that quite a few times, all with long area loading processes). So many perception check spots which you can miss if your perception character doesn't come close enough (for example, due to their placement in the 6-members party) even while you THINK you have explored this spot. A bit of an ugh! dungeon for me, really.
m7600
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I actually liked the dungeon design for the Dwarven Ruins. Granted, it wasn't mind-blowing or anything like that, but I liked it nonetheless.
My least favorite part of the game is the one where I'm at right now, Sounds of a Thousand Screams. It feels a bit like a slog compared to the other chapters. Maybe it's just me, I just want to finish this damn thing, lol.
My least favorite part of the game is the one where I'm at right now, Sounds of a Thousand Screams. It feels a bit like a slog compared to the other chapters. Maybe it's just me, I just want to finish this damn thing, lol.
m7600
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This, 100%. Fascinate is my favorite ability in this game, by far. It's the best crowd control ability, IMO. Maybe @alice_ashpool would disagree. There's certainly more powerful spells for crowd control, like Deep Slumber, Overwhelming Grief, Hold Monster, etc. But the reason why I like Fascinate so much is that, since its a bard song, you can cast it many more times than other crowd control spells. My entire style of playing revolves around Fascinate, I use it almost every battle, and it makes the fights much more manageable for me. You can focus on attacking the enemies that make their will saves, and then pick apart the rest one by one.
alice_ashpool
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A very common response when you get that far into the game!